The Brexit thread

[slowsider]

Still, its better than continuing the sequence of wars than led to it's initiation.

I think NATO has probably been more of a deterrent to european countries getting all shouty with each other than EU membership.

Trading relationships have never really precluded a country's agression. I'm not entirely certain of this but I would hazard a guess that France was Germany's biggest trading partner in 1939.

The Schuman Declaration was intended to prevent further war between France and Germany and other states by tackling the root cause of war. The ECSC was primarily conceived with France and Germany in mind: "The coming together of the nations of Europe requires the elimination of the age-old opposition of France and Germany. Any action taken must in the first place concern these two countries." The coal and steel industries being essential for the production of munitions, Schuman believed that by uniting these two industries across France and Germany under an innovative supranational system that also included a European anti-cartel agency, he could "make war not only unthinkable but materially impossible"

NATO counterbalanced the Soviet Union.

[Count Steer]

There's more to politics than throwing your toys out of the pram and shouting 'veto' whenever you don't like something. Persuasion, wheeler-dealing, logical argument etc. Germany seems to wield influence without pulling the plug every 5 minutes.

Lots needed reform. The parliament was a bit of a sick joke when you look at the dross that we (and others) send to it. It's rather droll that our turkeys voted for Christmas and got themselves hoiked off the gravy train.

There is a lot more, and assorted PMs tried hard to make it work to no avail.

Essentially the EU is non-democratic, the Commission wield the power, the 'democracy' bit is window dressing with no power.

The Commission is selected by the Council which is made up of elected Heads of State. Just the same really as we elect a party with a leader, they select the ministers. Nobody elects someone to the post of eg Home Secretary. What they then do is scrutinised by the elected Parliament in several ways.

Non- democratic? Only if you want to believe it.

[Cousin Jack]

"The Schuman Declaration was intended to prevent further war between France and Germany and other states by tackling the root cause of war. The ECSC was primarily conceived with France and Germany in mind: "The coming together of the nations of Europe requires the elimination of the age-old opposition of France and Germany. Any action taken must in the first place concern these two countries." The coal and steel industries being essential for the production of munitions, Schuman believed that by uniting these two industries across France and Germany under an innovative supranational system that also included a European anti-cartel agency, he could "make war not only unthinkable but materially impossible"

The only countries with the ability today to fight and sustain an all-out modern war lasting more than a few weeks are China, Israel, probably Russia and perhaps the USA.

All the rest of us are beholden to China, and/or have populations that would not accept the privations of war.

[wheelnut]

NATO counterbalanced the Soviet Union.

And in the process gave Western Europe a common enemy, making it less likely that they’d start throwing rocks at each other.

[slowsider]

NATO counterbalanced the Soviet Union.

And in the process gave Western Europe a common enemy, making it less likely that they’d start throwing rocks at each other.

And the period when France was out of NATO ?

[irie]

Still, its better than continuing the sequence of wars than led to it's initiation.

I think NATO has probably been more of a deterrent to european countries getting all shouty with each other than EU membership.

Trading relationships have never really precluded a country's agression. I'm not entirely certain of this but I would hazard a guess that France was Germany's biggest trading partner in 1939.

Of course it's been NATO, the big stick holder.

[irie]

There's more to politics than throwing your toys out of the pram and shouting 'veto' whenever you don't like something. Persuasion, wheeler-dealing, logical argument etc. Germany seems to wield influence without pulling the plug every 5 minutes.

Lots needed reform. The parliament was a bit of a sick joke when you look at the dross that we (and others) send to it. It's rather droll that our turkeys voted for Christmas and got themselves hoiked off the gravy train.

There is a lot more, and assorted PMs tried hard to make it work to no avail.

Essentially the EU is non-democratic, the Commission wield the power, the 'democracy' bit is window dressing with no power.

The Commission is selected by the Council which is made up of elected Heads of State. Just the same really as we elect a party with a leader, they select the ministers. Nobody elects someone to the post of eg Home Secretary. What they then do is scrutinised by the elected Parliament in several ways.

Non- democratic? Only if you want to believe it.

True, scrutinise but absolutely nothing else. The Parliament can only take it or leave it - it can not introduce any legislation of its own. Bit like the House of Lords but even the House of Lords can introduce new legislation.

[Count Steer]

There is a lot more, and assorted PMs tried hard to make it work to no avail.

Essentially the EU is non-democratic, the Commission wield the power, the 'democracy' bit is window dressing with no power.

The Commission is selected by the Council which is made up of elected Heads of State. Just the same really as we elect a party with a leader, they select the ministers. Nobody elects someone to the post of eg Home Secretary. What they then do is scrutinised by the elected Parliament in several ways.

Non- democratic? Only if you want to believe it.

Bit like the House of Lords but even the House of Lords can introduce new legislation.

That would be the democratically elected House of Lords introducing new legislation would it? Those people that we voted for?

Glass houses/stones etc.

[Asian Boss]

I'm not sure that it matters -which- industries are being screwed by brexit. The fact that they are and that the issues were foreseeable is enough.

Where's the clapping for the new accidental heroes, the abbatoir workers?

When they were warned they said: "Project fear". And now it's happening they say that's what they wanted all along.

I wonder what else they wanted all along (but never mentioned)?

[irie]

The Commission is selected by the Council which is made up of elected Heads of State. Just the same really as we elect a party with a leader, they select the ministers. Nobody elects someone to the post of eg Home Secretary. What they then do is scrutinised by the elected Parliament in several ways.

Non- democratic? Only if you want to believe it.

Bit like the House of Lords but even the House of Lords can introduce new legislation.

That would be the democratically elected House of Lords introducing new legislation would it? Those people that we voted for?

Glass houses/stones etc.

The fact that you removed this from your above quote speaks for itself.

True, scrutinise but absolutely nothing else. The Parliament can only take it or leave it - it can not introduce any legislation of its own. Bit like the House of Lords but even the House of Lords can introduce new legislation.

[Count Steer]

Bit like the House of Lords but even the House of Lords can introduce new legislation.

That would be the democratically elected House of Lords introducing new legislation would it? Those people that we voted for?

Glass houses/stones etc.

The fact that you removed this from your above quote speaks for itself.

True, scrutinise but absolutely nothing else. The Parliament can only take it or leave it - it can not introduce any legislation of its own. Bit like the House of Lords but even the House of Lords can introduce new legislation.

The fact that you used the House of Lords as an example of democracy was funnier

(Nice fast edit btw ).

[irie]

That would be the democratically elected House of Lords introducing new legislation would it? Those people that we voted for?

Glass houses/stones etc.

The fact that you removed this from your above quote speaks for itself.

True, scrutinise but absolutely nothing else. The Parliament can only take it or leave it - it can not introduce any legislation of its own. Bit like the House of Lords but even the House of Lords can introduce new legislation.

The fact that you used the House of Lords as an example of democracy was funnier

(Nice fast edit btw ).

The sole purpose of mentioning the House of Lords was to illustrate the absolute legislative impotency of the European Parliament, nowhere was the House of Lords presented as a democratic institution.

Even the House of Lords can introduce new legislation (which of course is subject to scrutiny and voting in the elected House of Commons) whereas the European Parliament can not.

But you know all this of course.

[Hot_Air]

No-one could really predict what would happen. But they neither side really tried.

Some people with in-depth expertise in their industry were able to predict what would happen to it.

[Cousin Jack]

No-one could really predict what would happen. But they neither side really tried.

Some people with in-depth expertise in their industry were able to predict what would happen to it.

Quite a few people outside the moaning industries could predict it too, but the industries concerned prefer to moan and lobby for more visas rather than address the issues themselves. When was the last time you met a young person who got a job as an apprentice HGV driver?

[Felix]

When was the last time you met a young person who got a job as an apprentice HGV driver?

Two years ago if you count 29 as young

[Pirahna]

When was the last time you met a young person who got a job as an apprentice HGV driver?

Has such a thing ever existed? It's not something that's ever struck me as needing an apprenticeship.

[Asian Boss]

I don't think they've been called HGVs for some time. From memory they're LGVs now.

[Pirahna]

I don't think they've been called HGVs for some time. From memory they're LGVs now.

LGV - Light Goods Vehicle. This is up to 3.5t maximum laden weight. This is the license everyone has regardless of when you passed your test.

HGV - Heavy Goods Vehicle. A bit more complicated.

[Felix]

I can drive up to 7.5t.

[Asian Boss]

I don't think they've been called HGVs for some time. From memory they're LGVs now.

LGV - Light Goods Vehicle. This is up to 3.5t maximum laden weight. This is the license everyone has regardless of when you passed your test.

HGV - Heavy Goods Vehicle. A bit more complicated.

I thought lorries over 3.5 tonnes were now Large Goods Vehicles (LGVs) and were formerly known as HGVs. And now those under 3.5t are Light Commercial Vehicles.

edit - I stand corrected. I think! I'm not an expert

Under the UK and European law, the LGV licence and HGV licence are the same licence. They cover all commercial trucks that feature a gross combination mass of over 3500kg which could include fridge trucks, box vans, Lutons, flat beds, tippers and ADR, drop sides, and much more.

Confusion often comes about from the incorrect use of the term LGV, as some people think it stands for Light Goods Vehicles to drive pickup trucks and vans, with a gross vehicle weight of under 3500kg. In fact you can drive up to 3500kg (3.5 tonnes) with your car driving licence – category ‘B’ entitlement.

So, if there is no difference between LGV and HGV

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