Who Will You Vote For?

[irie]

I'm not convinced the NHS is worse, it's probably got better and better over the years at looking after people's health.
Medicine has turned into a bigger industry consuming more resources which are compounded by people living longer, so we have more people demanding a more expensive service. Maybe people are just expecting a lot more than they used to.

Add this to the list.

[irie]

I'm not convinced the NHS is worse, it's probably got better and better over the years at looking after people's health.
Medicine has turned into a bigger industry consuming more resources which are compounded by people living longer, so we have more people demanding a more expensive service. Maybe people are just expecting a lot more than they used to.

One area where the National HEALTH Service has failed consistently is in the promotion of good health. It is a repair service and as it hasn't been true to it's original concept it is now failing as a repair service because more and more people are in the queue for repairs.

Despite it's overwhelming majority of managers compared to frontline staff is is appalingly managed. As irie says "Chucking money at it will not change this. The model must change."

I was taking people to Dalaman airport yesterday and whilst negotiating a very busy Marmaris (it's Kurban Bayramı so as well as the usual tourists the whole area is full of Turks from Istanbul, Ankara and Izmir) my passengers commented that it is easy to pick out the Brits. The majority are obese and this has got to be a huge (self inflicted) burden on the NHS simply because obesity never arrives on its own.

Add this to the list.

[Count Steer]

I'm not convinced the NHS is worse, it's probably got better and better over the years at looking after people's health.
Medicine has turned into a bigger industry consuming more resources which are compounded by people living longer, so we have more people demanding a more expensive service. Maybe people are just expecting a lot more than they used to.

One area where the National HEALTH Service has failed consistently is in the promotion of good health. It is a repair service and as it hasn't been true to it's original concept it is now failing as a repair service because more and more people are in the queue for repairs.

Despite it's overwhelming majority of managers compared to frontline staff is is appalingly managed. As irie says "Chucking money at it will not change this. The model must change."

I was taking people to Dalaman airport yesterday and whilst negotiating a very busy Marmaris (it's Kurban Bayramı so as well as the usual tourists the whole area is full of Turks from Istanbul, Ankara and Izmir) my passengers commented that it is easy to pick out the Brits. The majority are obese and this has got to be a huge (self inflicted) burden on the NHS simply because obesity never arrives on its own.

That's a little unfair on the NHS. I just happen to be reading a publication 'The Essentials if Human Nutrition' (yeah, a bit of light reading ) and it has this to say about 'Prevention of Obesity'...

...preventative approaches offer the only meaningful long-term solution to reversing the worldwide epidemic of obesity. Many approaches have been tried to date, but thus far no country has been able to reverse the escalating rates as a whole. However, the fact that there is now less overweight in those of higher socioeconomic status in Western societies shows that despite the role of genetic factors, obesity is partially preventable.

It goes on to say that desirable things include reduced consumption of sugary drinks and more exercise for children and a correct approach to nutrition and eating in the curriculum and school canteen. So, facilities for exercise are required and appropriate food choices at reasonable cost etc etc.

Raising socioeconomic status and all the other things that might work seem way outside the remit of the NHS.

[Yambo]

Raising socioeconomic status and all the other things that might work seem way outside the remit of the NHS.

The NHS is government funded out of the taxes we pay so it is certainly not outside the remit of the NHS to push the need for improving overall fitness and other aspects of a healthy lifestyle. The NHS does absolutely nothing with our money to tell people how to be generally more healthy.

If it is government policy (and it seems to be so) that people should be fatter and unhealthy then it is also the NHS's policy.

The UK is supposedly one of the wealthiest nations on the planet - or was. What has the money been spent on? Social engineering by successive governments has lowered education standards, made a joke of the criminal justice system and made swathes of the population unhealthy, presumably by lowering the UK's socioeconomic status. The NHS has played it's part in all of this.

How many young people want to go into medicine. How has the HNS promoted a frontline career in NHS to young people? Why is there a large number of foreign people working in the NHS (the surgeon who replumbed my heart was Indian, the Registrar who assisted him was Syrian, the anaesthetist was iirc Sri Lankan. I don't know about the nurses, technicians etc who also assisted in the operation itself but . . . )?

The NHS has quite simply wasted money (our, taxpayer's money) by appalingly poor, top heavy management that has prioritised the wrong things. Then they moan about it, demanding more money to be wasted.

...preventative approaches

It's good that 'The Essentials if Human Nutrition' agree with me.

[Mr. Dazzle]

The NHS does absolutely nothing with our money to tell people how to be generally more healthy.

This is bollox.

Loads on their website, loads of TV campaigns, visits to schools, the whole "couch to 5k" thing, food "traffic light" labels....

https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/

[mangocrazy]

And as for your comment about your house in France being a holiday home, the point you missed was that if necessary you will have the money to self fund medical care, as we also can.

I fail to see how me having ownership of a holiday home means that I will have the money to self fund medical care. If anything I will have less money to fund medical care, as I have the additional overhead of maintenance, upkeep and French property taxes to come out of my pension. I'm not complaining about it, it's a choice I made, but it's another drain on resources albeit one that I'm happy to accept.

[Count Steer]

Sounds like you're saying it's governments that are at fault to me Yambo. That's where the buck stops.

[mangocrazy]

The NHS does absolutely nothing with our money to tell people how to be generally more healthy.

Being obese is a personal choice in most cases. And you wouldn't want your personal choice curtailed, now would you? 'Take back control' and similar bollocks spring to mind. You can't have it both ways - do you want to take responsibility for your personal health or do you want the 'Nanny State' to intervene?

[Yambo]

The NHS does absolutely nothing with our money to tell people how to be generally more healthy.

This is bollox.

Loads on their website, loads of TV campaigns, visits to schools, the whole "couch to 5k" thing, food "traffic light" labels....

https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/

Doesn't seem to be working.

HTH

[Yambo]

The NHS does absolutely nothing with our money to tell people how to be generally more healthy.

Being obese is a personal choice in most cases. And you wouldn't want your personal choice curtailed, now would you? 'Take back control' and similar bollocks spring to mind. You can't have it both ways - do you want to take responsibility for your personal health or do you want the 'Nanny State' to intervene?

I agree, obesity is a lifestyle choice.

Governments have stomped on other 'lifestyle choices' in the past so why not stomp on obesity, bearing in mind the cost to us all?

[Taipan]

Anyone else going?

[%7B%22extra_data%22%3A%22[]%22%2C%22mechanism%22%3A%22surface%22%2C%22surface%22%3A%22notifications_tab%22%7D%2C%7B%22extra_data%22%3A%22[]%22%2C%22mechanism%22%3A%22discovery_top_tab%22%2C%22surface%22%3A%22bookmark%22%7D]%2C%22ref_notif_type%22%3Anull%2C%22source%22%3A%2229%22%7D

[Count Steer]

The NHS does absolutely nothing with our money to tell people how to be generally more healthy.

Being obese is a personal choice in most cases. And you wouldn't want your personal choice curtailed, now would you? 'Take back control' and similar bollocks spring to mind. You can't have it both ways - do you want to take responsibility for your personal health or do you want the 'Nanny State' to intervene?

I agree, obesity is a lifestyle choice.

Or genetic factors. (As demonstrated by, among other things, studies of adopted children).

[Yambo]

The NHS does absolutely nothing with our money to tell people how to be generally more healthy.

This is bollox.

Loads on their website, loads of TV campaigns, visits to schools, the whole "couch to 5k" thing, food "traffic light" labels....

https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/

I've just looked on their website to check (unlike most of the population I guess, who look on there for other reasons).

Health A to Z
Your complete guide to conditions, symptoms and treatments, including what to do and when to get help.

Nothing in there to say "How not to develop . . .

But then, maybe I'm just being picky and I should do a better search.

As a sort of related aside, I used to do some advanced driver training. You can't sell safety, nobody wants to know so our company and I guess most others sold reducing fuel consumption. As you will of course know, just about everything you do whilst driving to improve fuel consumption is generally safer. How you go about the training side of things is key to long term success because, as we all know, being told to do something may have an initial effect but that effect may not last.

People do not want to be told what to do or how they should do things that impinge on their 'rights'. There's no incentive to be healthy; if I have a problem, the NHS will fix me. If the NHS said "We can't even attempt to fix you until you lose a shed load of weight . . ." word would soon get around and if it didn't, their obesity may kill them and subsequently free up some places for intelligent people to get treated.

[Mr. Dazzle]

A look over the Atlantic might poke some holes in that theory.

Food is "too" cheap, that's pretty much it Our caveman drives are out of synch with our production brains.

[Noggin]

the NHS 'needs to move to an insurance-backed model'.

I don't mind this idea up to a point. Ok, insurance-backed like the USA is an absolute no-no to me. That will cause pain, suffering and bankruptcy to anyone without a shit ton of money behind them.

But, there's a few EU countries that operate a system similar to France - you have a card to show you are eligible for treatment as a full resident.
The state pays 70% of all costs direct. In some cases they pay 100% (things like cancer, other ALDs (all life disease I think they're called) and, I think but am not sure, things like road accidents).
The 30% is paid for by an insurance (here it's called a Mutuelle). This is available as a government supported insurance for low incomes that is around 5-10€ a month.
Mine, despite the huge amount of costs connected to my shoulder/knee issues, still only costs me 42€ a month - it's gone up 5€ in 6 years. Which I think is pretty ok! I don't want to change it for now as I know what I get and what is covered!! Many people choose not to have cover for that 30%, but that is their choice and they then have to find the 30% if necessary (for me that would have been in tens of thousands, so I'll never not have a decent mutuelle!)

Germany has something similar but there's an element taken from wages I think (my brother explained it to me a few years ago but I can't remember )

When you move to France you have to apply for the Carte Vitale, up to that point you pay for everything but keep the receipts and they will be refunded once the card is received.

Downside for where I live is that all the healthcare inn resort is private - so I pay for everything at the doctor (appointment fee is 25€ but xrays are extra) and everything at the pharmacy has to be paid for in full. BUT, the 70% is refunded to your bank within 2-4 days usually and the mutuelle refunds the 30% within 3-5 days usually.

Only issues come if you want something not covered or if you choose to see a specialist that charges more than the government will refund - but you don't have to choose that particular specialist.


The French aren't exactly backward in going to see doctors, so it does mostly work. Although I've spoken to a handful of medical people who say it isn't sustainable, but I guess as with all countries there is an aging population that needs more care?

But it's got to be better than a USA type system

[Taipan]

The NHS does absolutely nothing with our money to tell people how to be generally more healthy.

This is bollox.

Loads on their website, loads of TV campaigns, visits to schools, the whole "couch to 5k" thing, food "traffic light" labels....

https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/

I've just looked on their website to check (unlike most of the population I guess, who look on there for other reasons).

Health A to Z
Your complete guide to conditions, symptoms and treatments, including what to do and when to get help.

Nothing in there to say "How not to develop . . .

But then, maybe I'm just being picky and I should do a better search.

As a sort of related aside, I used to do some advanced driver training. You can't sell safety, nobody wants to know so our company and I guess most others sold reducing fuel consumption. As you will of course know, just about everything you do whilst driving to improve fuel consumption is generally safer. How you go about the training side of things is key to long term success because, as we all know, being told to do something may have an initial effect but that effect may not last.

People do not want to be told what to do or how they should do things that impinge on their 'rights'. There's no incentive to be healthy; if I have a problem, the NHS will fix me. If the NHS said "We can't even attempt to fix you until you lose a shed load of weight . . ." word would soon get around and if it didn't, their obesity may kill them and subsequently free up some places for intelligent people to get treated.

That's a tired response. A lot of dangerous activities out there as well as unhealthy eating habits and not all obesity is down to unhealthy eating and the NHS was never designed to be judgemental, just a catch-all.

[mangocrazy]

People do not want to be told what to do or how they should do things that impinge on their 'rights'. There's no incentive to be healthy; if I have a problem, the NHS will fix me. If the NHS said "We can't even attempt to fix you until you lose a shed load of weight . . ." word would soon get around and if it didn't, their obesity may kill them and subsequently free up some places for intelligent people to get treated.

Agree entirely. The same should apply to smoking and alcohol-related 'illnesses'. But it's a two-edged sword - what if motorcycling became officially stigmatised as 'dangerous' and any motorcycling-related injuries were treated similarly? Be careful what you wish for...

[Horse]

From our friends' experiences, the French system works well. Quick and efficient.

[Yambo]

Being obese is a personal choice in most cases. And you wouldn't want your personal choice curtailed, now would you? 'Take back control' and similar bollocks spring to mind. You can't have it both ways - do you want to take responsibility for your personal health or do you want the 'Nanny State' to intervene?

I agree, obesity is a lifestyle choice.

Or genetic factors. (As demonstrated by, among other things, studies of adopted children).

Ah, yes, genetic factors!

Fatty A goes to the doctor with issues of obesity and associated problems. The doctor says "You need to eat less and move more. Eat less sugar and fat, make some dietary changes and start doing some gentle exercising to start with and slowly increase the intensity of that to assist in the weight loss. All of this should have an effect on your weight and the associated issues. Here's a diet sheet."

Fatty A: "Is that really the issue? I understand there could be a genetic link to obesity."

Doc: "Yes, there could be a genetic link and it's something we can look at if reducing your intake and exercise has little or no effect. There are other options but they involve surgery and it's too early to jump into that right now."

Fatty A: "Oh OK.

Fatty A goes home. His wife says "What did the doctor say?"

Fatty A: "He says there could be a genetic link so there's not much I can do really. May need an operation but don't really wanna do that. Burgers for lunch?"

[Count Steer]

Well yeah, that and endocrine, autocrine, cytokines, leptin, adiponectin etc. So yup, just burgers.

Methinks your view may be skewed by tourists in search of sun, cheap beer and food.

Try getting out of the other side of bed tomorrow eh?