Would you have an electric car if you had the money for a new car and were in the market for one?

[Supermofo]

Accumulated experience is revealing another financial drawback with electric vehicles. I recently wanted to replace my 3 year old Silence S01 electric scooter with a new slightly improved latest version of the same. But no agent I could find was willing to accept the old S01 even in part exchange for a new S01 ! I eventually found a scooter dealer willing to accept the old scooter in exchange for a conventional 125 but the depreciation was a killing 70% and it had covered less than 2000 miles.

While trading in my hybrid car for a new hybrid car I discussed the situation at the dealership and there is definitely a major issue in the second hand car market when it comes to full electric cars too. Private buyers are unwilling to pay a premium for a car which depreciates massively and dealers are not finding it easy to shift second hand cars in a sluggish market. It could be argued that conventional technologies sometimes break down and cost massive amounts of money to fix but the difference with batteries that it can be almost guaranteed that after a specific number of charge cycles or years it is certain that they will deteriorate and this completely undermines confidence in second hand vehicles.

There is a relatively simple solution to this which is for a new specialist trade able to refurbish batteries to an as-new condition at reasonable cost. But unless manufacturers and dealers are willing to promote or subsidise this we could be waiting another ten years to get a stable market.

Anecdotally from youtube and some car magazines a lot of this seems to be buyers believing that a) with a leccy car you are buying something with an ever decreasing fuel tank and b) future models will be improved and therefore worth waiting for over getting this gen of car. So not even dealers want this gen second hand EV now.

I guess something similar might have been the case with early ICE but back then there was no viable alternative if you wanted transport other than a horse. Now there are loads of ICE alternatives still about.

[Taipan]

Accumulated experience is revealing another financial drawback with electric vehicles. I recently wanted to replace my 3 year old Silence S01 electric scooter with a new slightly improved latest version of the same. But no agent I could find was willing to accept the old S01 even in part exchange for a new S01 ! I eventually found a scooter dealer willing to accept the old scooter in exchange for a conventional 125 but the depreciation was a killing 70% and it had covered less than 2000 miles.

While trading in my hybrid car for a new hybrid car I discussed the situation at the dealership and there is definitely a major issue in the second hand car market when it comes to full electric cars too. Private buyers are unwilling to pay a premium for a car which depreciates massively and dealers are not finding it easy to shift second hand cars in a sluggish market. It could be argued that conventional technologies sometimes break down and cost massive amounts of money to fix but the difference with batteries that it can be almost guaranteed that after a specific number of charge cycles or years it is certain that they will deteriorate and this completely undermines confidence in second hand vehicles.

There is a relatively simple solution to this which is for a new specialist trade able to refurbish batteries to an as-new condition at reasonable cost. But unless manufacturers and dealers are willing to promote or subsidise this we could be waiting another ten years to get a stable market.

Anecdotally from youtube and some car magazines a lot of this seems to be buyers believing that a) with a leccy car you are buying something with an ever decreasing fuel tank and b) future models will be improved and therefore worth waiting for over getting this gen of car. So not even dealers want this gen second hand EV now.

I guess something similar might have been the case with early ICE but back then there was no viable alternative if you wanted transport other than a horse. Now there are loads of ICE alternatives still about.

As said earlier, in the same way ICE never achieved Govt figures, EVs certainly don't either, but coupled with a further range reduction in winter, EVs have lost, or are losing the hype. With plummeting residuals due to the battery life concerns, the 2nd hand market has pretty much collapsed, and an increasing number of 2nd hand dealers wont even stock them, so its only going to be PCP and fleet/company car sales that keep them alive for now. For people like me who buy outright, they are a total no no. As much as I'd love to have a EV, the technology (and residuals) is a long way off of where it needs to be before I'd commit to one. TBH at the moment, for the private market, I see them as nothing more than a 240v white elephant!

[Count Steer]

Anecdotally from youtube and some car magazines a lot of this seems to be buyers believing that a) with a leccy car you are buying something with an ever decreasing fuel tank and b) future models will be improved and therefore worth waiting for over getting this gen of car. So not even dealers want this gen second hand EV now.

I guess something similar might have been the case with early ICE but back then there was no viable alternative if you wanted transport other than a horse. Now there are loads of ICE alternatives still about.

Back then, with a lot fewer cars around I'd imagine s/h ones were in great demand.

The situation with EVs now is the risk of being an early adopter in an evolving market with abundant alternatives around. TBH I'd be surprised if this 'nobody wants s/h EVs' applies to all makes though - Tesla probably has a whole host of fanboi wanting a cheap one.

I imagine the major brands will come up with some form of s/h warranty that derisks the pain/cost of having to replace the batts - a plummeting s/h market won't help sales of new ones. The cheaper stuff will probably be like early Skodas...buy one, use it, scrap it. (Scrap value will be higher though).

Still think hybrids are the best option for a while yet.

[Saga Lout]

Anecdotally from youtube and some car magazines a lot of this seems to be buyers believing that a) with a leccy car you are buying something with an ever decreasing fuel tank and b) future models will be improved and therefore worth waiting for over getting this gen of car. So not even dealers want this gen second hand EV now.

I guess something similar might have been the case with early ICE but back then there was no viable alternative if you wanted transport other than a horse. Now there are loads of ICE alternatives still about.

A quick Google (using DuckDuckGo of course ) turned up this: https://www.autotrader.ca/editorial/201 ... tric-cars/
"...in 1900, the best-selling car in the United States was powered by batteries."
and
"At the New York Auto Show of 1902, the displays included 58 steam-powered vehicles, 58 gasoline ones, and 23 electrics."

I wouldn't call that no viable alternative.

[MrLongbeard]

TBH I'd be surprised if this 'nobody wants s/h EVs' applies to all makes though - Tesla probably has a whole host of fanboi wanting a cheap one.

Not when Tesla keep cutting their own prices

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1d4g8jz57yo
https://www.forbes.com/sites/brookecrot ... n-model-2/

[Dodgy]

Accumulated experience is revealing another financial drawback with electric vehicles. I recently wanted to replace my 3 year old Silence S01 electric scooter with a new slightly improved latest version of the same. But no agent I could find was willing to accept the old S01 even in part exchange for a new S01 ! I eventually found a scooter dealer willing to accept the old scooter in exchange for a conventional 125 but the depreciation was a killing 70% and it had covered less than 2000 miles.

While trading in my hybrid car for a new hybrid car I discussed the situation at the dealership and there is definitely a major issue in the second hand car market when it comes to full electric cars too. Private buyers are unwilling to pay a premium for a car which depreciates massively and dealers are not finding it easy to shift second hand cars in a sluggish market. It could be argued that conventional technologies sometimes break down and cost massive amounts of money to fix but the difference with batteries that it can be almost guaranteed that after a specific number of charge cycles or years it is certain that they will deteriorate and this completely undermines confidence in second hand vehicles.

There is a relatively simple solution to this which is for a new specialist trade able to refurbish batteries to an as-new condition at reasonable cost. But unless manufacturers and dealers are willing to promote or subsidise this we could be waiting another ten years to get a stable market.

Anecdotally from youtube and some car magazines a lot of this seems to be buyers believing that a) with a leccy car you are buying something with an ever decreasing fuel tank and b) future models will be improved and therefore worth waiting for over getting this gen of car. So not even dealers want this gen second hand EV now.

I guess something similar might have been the case with early ICE but back then there was no viable alternative if you wanted transport other than a horse. Now there are loads of ICE alternatives still about.

As said earlier, in the same way ICE never achieved Govt figures, EVs certainly don't either, but coupled with a further range reduction in winter, EVs have lost, or are losing the hype. With plummeting residuals due to the battery life concerns, the 2nd hand market has pretty much collapsed, and an increasing number of 2nd hand dealers wont even stock them, so its only going to be PCP and fleet/company car sales that keep them alive for now. For people like me who buy outright, they are a total no no. As much as I'd love to have a EV, the technology (and residuals) is a long way off of where it needs to be before I'd commit to one. TBH at the moment, for the private market, I see them as nothing more than a 240v white elephant!

Aren't we past that now? Tesla flogging 2m cars a year. SH values don't seem to have collapsed here at all, although I'm mindful the UK market is very different (because of the fleet thing, depreciation in the UK way higher across the board)

I could see this being a thing 5 years ago, but EVs not nearly so new fangled as they were. I think we're well past 'early adopters' too

[Slenver]

TBH at the moment, for the private market, I see them as nothing more than a 240v white elephant!

I see them as a bargain currently. I mean, I wouldn't buy most models new with cash either, the residuals are currently terrible, but this is becoming priced in now. You can get a new Nissan Leaf for 18k, or one with delivery mileage for 15k. Desirable? Not really. But an absolute steal for sure.

New Dacia coming out soon from 15k too, and I think with more affordable models coming out it'll revitalise the market to some degree.

Second-hand is crazy though. I guess there are a whole load of factors (government policy u-turns, huge swing back from mental covid market, initial excitement over, a lot of anti-EV propaganda in the red tops etc), but there's no way the current prices can be sustained. Once people come to terms with the realities of EV ownership (both good and bad), and infrastructure improves etc, I suspect prices will settle back to normality.

Currently, Taycans from 45k are pretty tempting though!

[Taipan]

TBH at the moment, for the private market, I see them as nothing more than a 240v white elephant!

I see them as a bargain currently. I mean, I wouldn't buy most models new with cash either, the residuals are currently terrible, but this is becoming priced in now. You can get a new Nissan Leaf for 18k, or one with delivery mileage for 15k. Desirable? Not really. But an absolute steal for sure.

New Dacia coming out soon from 15k too, and I think with more affordable models coming out it'll revitalise the market to some degree.

Second-hand is crazy though. I guess there are a whole load of factors (government policy u-turns, huge swing back from mental covid market, initial excitement over, a lot of anti-EV propaganda in the red tops etc), but there's no way the current prices can be sustained. Once people come to terms with the realities of EV ownership (both good and bad), and infrastructure improves etc, I suspect prices will settle back to normality.

Currently, Taycans from 45k are pretty tempting though!

As a few on here have said, if they stopped poncing about with ultra high performance EVs and focussed on making more useable daily drivers, then I think the EV market would flourish again quickly. So lets hope they address things with family cars like Leafs Dacias etc. Not sure how they're going to get a spin on the residuals for some time as the fall out hasn't finished yet. The real life range/recharge has kicked their green credentials too. But yeah those Taycans! I saw one used in anger the other day, its was pea sized in the distance before my x-adv had got into 2nd!

[Dodgy]

Seems like the UK market is very different from over here

It's very much aimed at daily drivers here. Tesla 3s and Polestar 2s is about as expansive as it gets, but the heavy marketing is going in from BYD, MG Hyundai and Kia, all at the cheaper end (sub $60K). Not many super performance EVs around at all.

Maybe because they're well suited to urban driving and not to out of town, which here means big distances and planning ahead for charging? The tax rules might have something to do with it too, the giveaway I mentioned early only goes up to $95K, after that it's accounted for like a normal car

[Mr. Dazzle]

Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, Range Rover etc all face an enormous existential threat, for sure.

So far they've been tackling the EV problem like everything else, make a bigger and fancier car.

Kia and BYD are gonna destroy them if they're not careful.

[Saga Lout]

Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, Range Rover etc all face an enormous existential threat, for sure...

And Ford
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/24/busi ... index.html

Ford’s electric vehicle unit reported that losses soared in the first quarter to $1.3 billion, or $132,000 for each of the 10,000 vehicles it sold in the first three months of the year...

Spending $200,000 making a product and selling it for $70,000 isn't a viable business model.

And Stellantis (Vauxhall, Citroen)
https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish ... ate/301061
"Stellantis boss threatens to slash UK presence in response to ‘terrible’ ZEV mandate"

I’m not going to sell cars at a loss.

[MyLittleStudPony]

TBH at the moment, for the private market, I see them as nothing more than a 240v white elephant!

I see them as a bargain currently. I mean, I wouldn't buy most models new with cash either, the residuals are currently terrible, but this is becoming priced in now. You can get a new Nissan Leaf for 18k, or one with delivery mileage for 15k. Desirable? Not really. But an absolute steal for sure.

New Dacia coming out soon from 15k too, and I think with more affordable models coming out it'll revitalise the market to some degree.

Second-hand is crazy though. I guess there are a whole load of factors (government policy u-turns, huge swing back from mental covid market, initial excitement over, a lot of anti-EV propaganda in the red tops etc), but there's no way the current prices can be sustained. Once people come to terms with the realities of EV ownership (both good and bad), and infrastructure improves etc, I suspect prices will settle back to normality.

Currently, Taycans from 45k are pretty tempting though!

I think I looked at used Tesla Model 3s about 6 months ago and they were just over 20k. Now they're just over 15. It's almost worth buying one just for t'craic.

[Mr. Dazzle]

"Stellantis boss threatens to slash UK presence in response to ‘terrible’ ZEV mandate"

I’m not going to sell cars at a loss.

Short term outlook, I'm talking multi year time scales.

Selling at a loss, or at least less profit, is exactly what you might have to do. Lots of big european OEMs are paying out enormous shareholder dividends right now while Chinese companies are investing heavily in EV tech.

All these rowing back statements from OEMs are designed to reassure shareholders with 3 year horizons. Meanwhile far eastern brands you haven't heard of are smelling the chance to take their slice of the market during this enormous paradigm shift.

This is also a bug part of why Jaguar are going full EV. They've tried but never really succeeded in taking on BMW et al on level terms. They're taking a punt on a reinvention while the dice are in the air.

[Saga Lout]

Hertz loses another $200 million from its EVs

"The company previously said it would sell off 20,000 EVs from its fleet, meaning it will now dispose of 30,000 EVs in its fleet through the end of 2024. Add today’s charge to the $245 million write-down taken in Q4, and the company has now lost $440 million on its EV gambit.
"Hertz’s EV fleet — which once stood at 60,000 EVs, will be cut down to half that at 30,000 EVs."

[Docca]

I have my Volvo XC40 back a couple of weeks ago. Nothing wrong with it- lovely and reliable, but I left my job so as it was a lease it went back.


I have an order for a Mercedes EQB which should be here in July (?) but I think it’s the right choice. I test drove the Tesla model Y and as much as a liked the ooomph, it was just too uncomfortable for every day uk driving.

[ZRX61]

Hertz dumping their EV's, CEO quit over his decision to buy them...

https://justthenews.com/politics-policy ... ends-hours

[Slenver]

I have my Volvo XC40 back a couple of weeks ago. Nothing wrong with it- lovely and reliable, but I left my job so as it was a lease it went back.


I have an order for a Mercedes EQB which should be here in July (?) but I think it’s the right choice. I test drove the Tesla model Y and as much as a liked the ooomph, it was just too uncomfortable for every day uk driving.

Friend of mine has a Y (and 3 before that) and loves it. TBH, I really don't like Teslas at all... bland outside, bland and stark inside to a ridiculous degree and, despite the image, really ancient tech. They refuse to adopt CarPlay/Android Auto which means relying on the apps they provide, which involves relying on the whims of a manchild. You can have fart apps and pictures of spaceships all day, but it you want to listen to a book or music (unless you use one of the 2 supported music services), then you have to Bluetooth from your phone like you're in an 2004 Hyundai.

[Docca]

Yeah- the CarPlay also put me off.

Sticking EV though. No brainer really. Was spending roughly £10 / week to charge and plus it means I don’t have to worry about nipping into town etc

[Slenver]

Yeah- the CarPlay also put me off.

Sticking EV though. No brainer really. Was spending roughly £10 / week to charge and plus it means I don’t have to worry about nipping into town etc

Yeah, we've averaged the equivalent of 250mpg in cost terms since we've had ours. Just about to broach the £100 mark for nearly 3,500 miles. Can't complain

[Mr. Dazzle]

Popped up on my LinkedIn this morning, American firm Redwood are making inroads into battery recycling.

https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/news/s ... s-process/

But of course, no one does Battery Recycling, the materials are all dug up by children.

Oh right...Toyota are already starting to use recycled materials.

https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/news/t ... ode-anode/