How many of you have had professional coaching to improve your road riding

[Horse]

Maybe, it's just difficult to encourage training on something folk have already passed on.

See my much earlier comments about the current L training and its potential faults.

[Hot_Air]

L-training may have its faults, but @Dodgy knees is right: it’s not easy to persuade some people to take training after they have passed an initial test.

However, image and reputation matter too. BikeSafe might only be a rudimentary intro to advanced training. But BikeSafe has a highly positive reputation, and it’s become popular through word of mouth. Rapid Training lives up to its name, which has given it a cool vibe among the cognoscenti. In contrast, the IAM has a polarising reputation (people’s experiences vary considerably, depending on what their IAM tutor is like).

[Bigyin]

I was fully aware that when I did my test it only taught me how to ride a bike to pass the test, not how to actually ride a bike (although my instructor was really good and probably gave me more info than the test syllabus required).

As a former CBT / DAS instructor, I can categorically state that's simply not the case.

The skills you learn on a basic training course cover most of everything you'll ever do on a bike. Can you operate the clutch and gears, use the throttle and brakes? You were taught that on CBT. Ridden in a town? You learned how on basic training! Negotiated a roundabout? You were taught that on basic training. Ridden round a hairpin bend in the mountains? You were taught the skills round the cones on CBT.

It may not have been explicitly explained, but the CORE SKILLS are all learned with your basic instructor.

Yes, you probably have - almost CERTAINLY have - REFINED those skills with more experience... but without the basic training to give you the underpinnings, it's a much tougher and longer job. I know that, because I taught myself to ride since there was no training option available at the time. I learned but it was accompanied by plenty of scraping noises and the occasional trip to hospital. One or two of the crashes I was lucky to survive.

And in my opinion, the training has got better. DAS teaches riders to deal with the weight and at least some of the power of the kind of machine they'll end up riding - I was instructing when DAS was introduced and it was a huge step forward in terms of the necessary machine control. We also had to up our game as instructors! And I think it produced better technically prepared riders (though there's arguably a problem with over-confidence). Compared with getting a test pass on a 11hp 125, riders have to work far harder to get a pass on the DAS bikes. With a good DAS pass in your pocket, you were most of the way to IAM standard back in 1997. It's no coincidence that the IAM have had to up their own game!

But basic training is not perfect. CBT is totally inadequate as preparation for the road. And DAS still falls short in three areas.

- the off-road collision avoidance elements are totally divorced from reality. Few riders completing the swerve element of Mod 1 seem to be aware that it's a collision avoidance manoeuvre because they as simply dodging cones, whilst the e-stop becomes a game of beating the speed gun. And that explains why novice riders who in theory have the skills have little idea where, when and how to apply them.

- there's no motorway training - though this will be a tough fix as there are many parts of the country where there are no motorways to ride on!

- on-road fails to cover one very vital element. Cornering skills - including counter-steering - are woefully addressed.

I agree with pretty much everything in that including the failures especially the lack of explanation of counter steering for the "avoidance"

Cones? No recollection of cones. We rode around a car park to make sure we could stay on the bike then went out on the road that afternoon. Closest I got to a hairpin was learning to do a U-Turn (badly) for my test - I definitely wasn't taught clutch control!!

Sounds like the training you received was woeful ..... the first thing you should have drilled is the clutch control. Without that slow speed control is pretty much a lucky dip if you manage it or not and there will be more failures than success.

IF you had been taught it before going on the road you wouldnt have wheelied out of the junction, you would have been able to master a u turn comfortably etc etc.

I do my best with those looking to move onto DAS when they attend for CBT toget their clutch control as good as it can be in the time i have as i know it makes the task easier for my DAS colleagues when the student comes back in and tries to ride a 600 at slow speed. If they cant comtrol the revs and clutch (and rear brake) then Mod 1 test becomes very difficult

[Yorick]

On phone so CBA to quote Whysub properly.

But trail braking is a great skill. I enjoyed showing pupils on track as not summat you can teach repetitively on the road.

[Horse]

I definitely wasn't taught clutch control!!

Sounds like the training you received was woeful ..... the first thing you should have drilled is the clutch control. Without that slow speed control is pretty much a lucky dip if you manage it or not and there will be more failures than success.

It was the first competence we drilled into Born Agains.

Finding the biting point has to be as good as instinctive as it's possible to get after a few minutes practice

It was the foundation for a lot of the subsequent work.

[Bigyin]

I definitely wasn't taught clutch control!!

Sounds like the training you received was woeful ..... the first thing you should have drilled is the clutch control. Without that slow speed control is pretty much a lucky dip if you manage it or not and there will be more failures than success.

It was the first competence we drilled into Born Agains.

Finding the biting point has to be as good as instinctive as it's possible to get after a few minutes practice

It was the foundation for a lot of the subsequent work.

I had 2 blokes today who said they had both ridden 125's a lot over the years but never done a CBT. I asked both to do a left loop of the pad. 1 tried to do it with clutch all the way out and using just throttle control so very jerky. The other one got to the turn at the end of the loop and pulled the clutch all the way in and freewheeled round then back on the throttle and off the clutch. Needless to say i stopped them both at that point and we started on clutch slip drills.

Took about 10 minutes and both were riding round at a crawl, perfectly balanced with a couple of thousand RPM held steady and clutch slip applied

Both said it was like a light bulb in their head and the feeling of control and stability was completely new. From there the figure 8's and U Turns were quite good as was slow speed in a straight line....... Thats 3 of the Mod 1 test elements sorted already

[Horse]

- on-road fails to cover one very vital element. Cornering skills - including counter-steering - are woefully addressed.

I agree with pretty much everything in that including the failures especially the lack of explanation of counter steering for the "avoidance"

Did you see someone's post, in the last few days, about not being taught countersteering prior to their Mod1?

Appalling.

So that's a whole, continuing, series of riders coming out of that school who don't one of the core skills for controlling a bike. No wonder riders crash out of corners and don't succeed - or, perhaps, even try - to swerve around obstructions

That said, I knew two people who were on the very first CBT accreditation course. They said to DSA: "Do you think that CBT ought to include 'gear changing'?"

So that's two of the four core control skills ...

[Bigyin]

Did you see someone's post, in the last few days, about not being taught countersteering prior to their Mod1?

Appalling.

So that's a whole, continuing, series of riders coming out of that school who don't one of the core skills for controlling a bike. No wonder riders crash out of corners and don't succeed - or, perhaps, even try - to swerve around obstructions

Yes i saw the post and as i have said before, it still isnt on the DVSA syllabus for teaching prior to Mod1 .... I have been through it and its not taught as a "lesson" or even mentioned so that covers ATB's that dont include it despite it being fairly easy to bring into the learning

From memory at the time i posted a pic of the page in the DSVA book "riding a motorcycle essential skills" book that covered countersteering and it had a caveat of "should only be practised with the advice of an experienced motorcycle instructor"

Not a single mention in their "Learning to Ride a Motorcycle" which covers CBT, Mod1 and Mod2

Edit: Found it

[The Spin Doctor]

L-training may have its faults, but @Dodgy knees is right: it’s not easy to persuade some people to take training after they have passed an initial test.

However, image and reputation matter too. BikeSafe might only be a rudimentary intro to advanced training. But BikeSafe has a highly positive reputation, and it’s become popular through word of mouth. Rapid Training lives up to its name, which has given it a cool vibe among the cognoscenti.

All true...

In contrast, the IAM has a polarising reputation (people’s experiences vary considerably, depending on what their IAM tutor is like).

But they have the advantage of a well-oiled and very well funded publicity machine, as well as a voice on national policy.

[Horse]

Did you see someone's post, in the last few days, about not being taught countersteering prior to their Mod1?

Appalling.

So that's a whole, continuing, series of riders coming out of that school who don't one of the core skills for controlling a bike. No wonder riders crash out of corners and don't succeed - or, perhaps, even try - to swerve around obstructions

Yes i saw the post and as i have said before, it still isnt on the DVSA syllabus for teaching prior to Mod1 .... I have been through it and its not taught as a "lesson" or even mentioned so that covers ATB's that dont include it despite it being fairly easy to bring into the learning

And this is what makes me very bitter ... The unwillingness to do the '2+2' that if someone is to be tested, then it's important that they are taught it.

I attended an event in 1995, also attended by instructors from France, Germany, Austria, USA. They all gave demos. All included steering.

As I said earlier, DSA have solely been influenced by 'Roadcraft', with many of their senior staff being ex-police. So the influences and beliefs there have cascaded through.

OK, so this is historic stuff, But trainers and riders are still suffering the knock-on effects.

[Bigyin]

And this is what makes me very bitter ...

I attended an event in 1995, also attended by instructors from France, Germany, Austria, USA. They all gave demos. All included steering.

As I said earlier, DSA have solely been influenced by 'Roadcraft', with many of their senior staff being ex-police. So the influences and beliefs there have cascaded through.

OK, so this is historic stuff, But trainers and riders are still suffering the knock-on effects.

Also bear in mind if any student comes off a bike during training prior to Mod1 and the accident report or student (when the DVSA calls him/her to check on the accident report) says anything about "counter steering" training or practise then the ATB will be hauled over the procedural hot coals for introducing training not on the syllabus .... you want to arm the students with all the tools but there is the risk that no doubt will piss you off even more

[Horse]

Eek. I didn't know that.

[Bigyin]

Eek. I didn't know that.

We had one a few weeks ago had a minor spill with a couple of skinned knees after too much throttle on a moped and then held onto the throttle as she slid off the side instead of letting the bike go. The instructor involved on the road ride filled out and submitted the 7 page accident report. Student rang us a few days later to say DVSA had rang her and wanted to check on the circumstances and was she happy how we dealt with it. They then contacted us and patted us on the head for following all procedure correctly

[Dodgy69]

[Bigyin]

If you would like some amusement then see how 6 time WSB Champion Jonny Rea copes with his CBT as he has finally decided to get a bike license ...... he does it on a 650 rather than a 125 but take some of the footage with a pinch of salt as we dont know how it was edited hence some of the "rider faults" that would be picked up by an instructor and fair play to him for filming it for his channel

Riding slowly isnt something you would look for on his CV so even he learned some new skills

[Horse]

And people accuse some of us of over-thinking

[Horse]

Eek. I didn't know that.

We had one a few weeks ago

Spin did an article or two about the crash rate during the early days of mod1. I'll leave him to post links

[Horse]

Eek. I didn't know that.

We had one a few weeks ago

Spin did an article or two about the crash rate during the early days of mod1. I'll leave him to post links

Or I'll post it:

https://survivalskills.wordpress.com/20 ... lysis/amp/

The ‘Module One’ off-road part of the UK motorcycle test was introduced in late April 2009, after a series of delays.

Immediately, there were a number of high profile accidents where candidates crashed during Module One, specifically during the high speed manoeuvres, the ‘avoidance’ and ’emergency stop’ manoeuvres.

As part of its remit, the House of Commons Transport Committee looked at the recorded incidents and published them in a House of Commons document earlier this year. (Safety of the Module One test)

[Noggin]

I’ve been watching all this heated debate from a distance….genuinely bemused and by people’s anger towards post test training !!?? The above post by hot air sums it up perfectly….if you’re able to put your ego aside….what have you got to lose ?? I would agree that standards differ greatly and it’s important to do your homework and get the right training

I suspect that on occasion, advice (criticism?) & suggestions that extra training would help for the future, have been posted on a crash thread. I know that when I threw my TL at the Astra on the M32, I had riding comments, at the least (was a long time ago!), posted on the thread - where I still didn’t actually know what exactly was broken and how it would be fixed, or if it would affect my plans to move countries and start a business

I know the comments were meant with kindness and to help when I got back on a bike. But on the day I did get a bit peeved reading them!! I would guess that others have had similar experiences and reacted similarly or with less amounts of peeve!

Like riding a bike - timing can be everything. If someone who agrees with and actively seeks out further training can be a bit miffed at training comments/riding critiques on a crash thread, then possibly others would react more strongly?

People who don't want it/don't believe it will help them/think they are perfect can opt out.

That's jolly civil of them. Is there an opt out card?

Something I can pull out when one of those types creeps up to me at a bike meeting or in the sailing club, or as I walk past a meeting of vegan people - it would be very handy to whip it out and say "Get thee back, I've opted out".

That proper made me laugh!!

BUT - if they can creep up on you - well, bloody poor obs, you failed the lifesaver (these-types) test!!

That's jolly civil of them. Is there an opt out card?

Give us the list of all the things you know absolutely
about, we'll circulate your description to the relevant people

L-training may have its faults, but @Dodgy knees is right: it’s not easy to persuade some people to take training after they have passed an initial test.

See, I really don’t understand this. If you qualify for something work related you generally have to have continuous assessments/training. Driving and riding are some of the few things you Don’t need to have assessments - until you are old. Weird!

Cones? No recollection of cones. We rode around a car park to make sure we could stay on the bike then went out on the road that afternoon. Closest I got to a hairpin was learning to do a U-Turn (badly) for my test - I definitely wasn't taught clutch control!!

Sounds like the training you received was woeful ..... the first thing you should have drilled is the clutch control. Without that slow speed control is pretty much a lucky dip if you manage it or not and there will be more failures than success.

IF you had been taught it before going on the road you wouldnt have wheelied out of the junction, you would have been able to master a u turn comfortably etc etc.

I do my best with those looking to move onto DAS when they attend for CBT toget their clutch control as good as it can be in the time i have as i know it makes the task easier for my DAS colleagues when the student comes back in and tries to ride a 600 at slow speed. If they cant comtrol the revs and clutch (and rear brake) then Mod 1 test becomes very difficult

Absolutely. I’d signed up for a 5 day course. At the end of the first day (CBT day) they asked if I had a bike at home to ride. When I said no, they passed me for the CBT - the implication being that I shouldn’t have passed!!

I was lucky that I understood clutch control from cars etc as I was able to learn better once I’d passed and briefly had a little bike.

But you are 100% right. Hopefully schools are better now, but this was a seemingly decent school in the middle of Bristol. we did ride around the car park before heading out on the road the first time but I really have no recollection of the sort of cone drills I see people doing nowadays, or anything similar!!

On phone so CBA to quote Whysub properly.

But trail braking is a great skill. I enjoyed showing pupils on track as not summat you can teach repetitively on the road.

I got told once that my brake light was on into corners, as a criticism (BikeSafe day). Now I wonder if that’s what I was doing!!!

[Horse]

I suspect that on occasion, advice (criticism?) & suggestions that extra training would help for the future, have been posted on a crash thread. I know that when I threw my TL at the Astra on the M32, I had riding comments,

I know the comments were meant with kindness and to help when I got back on a bike. But on the day I did get a bit peeved reading them!!

After my 'big' crash (at 12-15mph!) I think the "you're the last person ... " type comments caused more psychological damage!

Not helped by a friend being killed in a SMIDSY just a few weeks later

See, I really don’t understand this. If you qualify for something work related you generally have to have continuous assessments/training. Driving and riding are some of the few things you Don’t need to have assessments - until you are old. Weird!

IIRC at 70 your GP has to say you're ok. That's it.

I got told once that my brake light was on into corners, as a criticism (BikeSafe day). Now I wonder if that’s what I was doing!!!

By your description, you didn't really know you were doing it, or why.

Trail braking has its uses, particularly for track riding. IMHO it's not something to intend to use often and regularly on-road unless you know what you intend to gain and the potential problems.

That's not saying "never brake in corners" etc. I could show you a blind corner near here where 50% of the time you will encounter red traffic lights