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Re: Electric bikes - “handbrake”?
Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2024 6:48 pm
by MrLongbeard
Mr. Dazzle wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 2:38 pm
it's just not on bikes, however sensible it might be.
Is it though, sensible that is.
OK, so I've only been riding 22 years, but it's not something I've ever thought I needed, and now I've got a bike that can be parked downhill as safely as uphill.
Re: Electric bikes - “handbrake”?
Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2024 7:10 pm
by Mr. Dazzle
You've probably not had an auto bike in all that time?
FWIW 'traditional' auto cars can't be left in gear either, which is why a distinct mechanical parking brake is mandated.
Re: Electric bikes - “handbrake”?
Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2024 7:32 pm
by Horse
Mr. Dazzle wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 7:10 pm
FWIW 'traditional' auto cars can't be left in gear either, which is why a distinct mechanical parking brake is mandated.
Don't they have both a parking brake and P position on the selector? (No idea what it does, though
)
Re: Electric bikes - “handbrake”?
Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2024 7:54 pm
by Mr. Dazzle
yeah - P - for "please don't roll away". You typically need both a brake brake and a transmission brake by law though, lots of people just put it in P and don't put the handbrake on.
The lever used to mechanically slide a bolt/pin into the transmission, now it asks a computer to do the same sort of thing. Means you can no longer accidentally jam that pin into the transmission at 70mph
'cause of the way a slush box works, it entirely possible for it to not be in a gear at all unless it's powered. They generally need a positive control input to actually be in a gear, so you can't leave it off and in gear (not to mention the fact the 'clutch' doesn't lock when the gearbox is off). So you have to have a separate mechanism to lock the gearbox.
Similar story with DCTs, although they can be left in gear in theory because it's a very different layout of cogs and whirry bits.
Just like an EV really! This isn't an E bike thing, it's an auto bike thing.
Re: Electric bikes - “handbrake”?
Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2024 8:30 pm
by MrLongbeard
Mr. Dazzle wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 7:10 pm
You've probably not had an auto bike in all that time?
Well except the 2 - 3 years of owning a Peugeot Speedfight 100, Prost edition I'll have you know.
Re: Electric bikes - “handbrake”?
Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2024 8:48 pm
by demographic
Mr. Dazzle wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 6:50 am
how do you think mopeds work?
Moped is just a power and speed definition, my Fizzie was a moped but it had gears, same as my mates AR50's and RD50's.
Re: Electric bikes - “handbrake”?
Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2024 9:09 pm
by porter_jamie
Mr. Dazzle wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 7:54 pm
yeah - P - for "please don't roll away". You typically need both a brake brake and a transmission brake by law though, lots of people just put it in P and don't put the handbrake on.
The lever used to mechanically slide a bolt/pin into the transmission, now it asks a computer to do the same sort of thing. Means you can no longer accidentally jam that pin into the transmission at 70mph
'cause of the way a slush box works, it entirely possible for it to not be in a gear at all unless it's powered. They generally need a positive control input to actually be in a gear, so you can't leave it off and in gear (not to mention the fact the 'clutch' doesn't lock when the gearbox is off). So you have to have a separate mechanism to lock the gearbox.
Similar story with DCTs, although they can be left in gear in theory because it's a very different layout of cogs and whirry bits.
Just like an EV really! This isn't an E bike thing, it's an auto bike thing.
I never, ever, use the handbrake (actually a foot brake on the Merc) I just leave it in park
So do dct ATs have a park brake where the clutch is normally?
Re: Electric bikes - “handbrake”?
Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2024 9:12 pm
by MrLongbeard
For anyone wanting some light bedtime reading the UN regulation for braking systems in passenger cars can be found
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content ... 42023X0401
Re: Electric bikes - “handbrake”?
Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2024 10:40 pm
by Tarmacsurfer
Mr. Dazzle wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 7:54 pm
The lever used to mechanically slide a bolt/pin into the transmission, now it asks a computer to do the same sort of thing. Means you can no longer accidentally jam that pin into the transmission at 70mph
I guess you know but a park pawl is ratcheted so can't engage at speed. Only when close to stationary.
I understand that some EV bike manufacturers are looking at putting electric park locks on. To stop roll away but also for security.
*OK it'll still lift into a van but hey
Re: Electric bikes - “handbrake”?
Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2024 6:37 am
by Mr. Dazzle
I'm talking aged ago now...
It's like the "have to put your foot in the brake to start" thing, that exists because of people running themselves over / driving into their garage wall
The park brake will still go in at something like 10mph on most cars
If you see em testing the boxes/brakes on a dyno it'll make you whince
Re: Electric bikes - “handbrake”?
Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2024 9:43 am
by Wossname
Tarmacsurfer wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 10:40 pm
Mr. Dazzle wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 7:54 pm
The lever used to mechanically slide a bolt/pin into the transmission, now it asks a computer to do the same sort of thing. Means you can no longer accidentally jam that pin into the transmission at 70mph
I understand that some EV bike manufacturers are looking at putting electric park locks on. To stop roll away but also for security.
That was my point when I started this thread. They spend a fortune developing complex electronics to do all sorts of esoteric stuff on your new bike, but omit a simple system to stop it moving when there’s - erm - nobody sitting on it. And still charge £20++ for it? Crazy.
Re: Electric bikes - “handbrake”?
Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2024 9:57 am
by Mr. Dazzle
It'll partly be down to Zero being a relatively new entrant to the market and having low budgets. Yes they spend a relative fortune getting all the EV stuff working, but in the grand scheme of things they're doing it on a shoestring and they can worry about parking brakes later.
Honda on the other hand for example have been making bikes for donkey's years and already have a process and a supplier for everything. If they want to fit a parking brake they know exactly where to get it, what to spec, how to integrate it into a production line and so on. Which is why their DCT bikes usually have a parking brake....
Re: Electric bikes - “handbrake”?
Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2024 2:12 pm
by Wossname
Yebbut - Zero don’t just say “I think we’re going to make a motorbike. Now, we need some wheels, and and and an engine, and…”. They say “now how do the experienced people do it? Ah, I see, that’s what we need - and if it’s got no gears we need something to stop it rolling off its stand, like they’ve got…”
Re: Electric bikes - “handbrake”?
Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2024 2:56 pm
by Mr. Dazzle
Ideally yes...but they're a start up and they've got (relatively) fuck all money, so they spend what they have on making their distinctive bit good - i.e. the EV drivetrain.
Loads of bikes can roll off their stand - basically all scooters for example, which outnumber 'proper bikes' by some crazy margin (globally). You don't have to have a parking brake at the moment.
When you're just starting out as a manufacturer you work on the really key stuff first.
There's also the fact that brake suppliers (no OEM actually designs this stuff themselves) won't give you the time of day as a start up, so it's quite hard to even get the systems.
Re: Electric bikes - “handbrake”?
Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 7:56 pm
by The Spin Doctor
Horse wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2024 10:32 pm
You wouldn't want one of these rolling away
I wonder if that tiny step of a curve would stop it though?
Re: Electric bikes - “handbrake”?
Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 9:32 pm
by Horse
Mr. Dazzle wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2024 2:56 pm
Loads of bikes can roll off their stand
My Guzzi V50 fell
over its sidestand!