revisiting - recommend me an e-MTB

[weeksy]

Riding the Liv is liking riding a motorbike from the 70’s and saying you don’t want a motorbike as you’ve tried one and you didn’t like it, although you liked the engine bit
The real issue is you don’t want the e-bike image as it isn’t gnarrrr enough I don’t believe I have any less fun on an e-bike than a normal one, arguably more fun as I go further more often.

Just remember you’re riding a dull non poppy e-bike, you’re right at the bottom of the scale. There’s so many better bikes out there.

I'm not arguing with any of that, hence not writing off the idea yet...But I still don't agree with much of it either.

The image doedn't enter into my head at all, i simply don't care.

[Dodgy69]

Reckon that the bike to go for, I was advised to get the bigger battery aswel, 625wh I think. What's the difference with the non deore and that one, or is it nowt.

[Dodgy69]

E R..

https://www.teamcycles.com/bikes/electr ... HMQAvD_BwE

[weeksy]

Yesterday was Peaks ride.

I rode
Liv Embolden
Trek Rail 5
Specialized SL
Focus Jam

The Focus was a monster truck of a 200mm DH forked thing, @millemille has got the forks set up lovely, very plush. It just eats up anything and everything. I only tried it on a descent though, so couldn't report much other than that.

Next is the Specialized SL, lightweight ebike and I was interested in how it'd compare with the bigger boys.
Based upon yesterday, not very well. I don't know the exact model a bloke we were out with was in, but it's 18kg or so, SL model. He struggled big time. I rode it and it's like riding my Liv at 2/5 dots. It's ok and it gets you up stuff, but it's a gentle hand on the back, rather than a shove.
Downhill it wasn't noticeably better that I'd pick an SL over a full fat.

I liked the idea of it and it was deffo worth trying. But if your mates are getting on with it, you'll need better fitness. I held the group, but using determination rather than power

The trek rail 5 is exactly what you'd expect of a Trek. But
it’s got sone weird traits in terms of power delivery. At 15.7 the battery/power doesn’t just end, it’s like hitting the brakes, the cranks don’t rotate like on the Liv, this meant some road sections you couldn't also ride it like a normal bike. But it's a competent thing and you quickly forget most aspects of it because it does everything competently.

The Liv Embolden, despite being by far the cheapest here was honestly a happy place for me.
I was happy down all descents on the Liv, no dropper lol. It made me see I don’t need a better one. I didn’t struggle in any way against way more expensive bikes. Even on the road against derestricted bikes it put on a good show. The brakes were meh, the rear shock bounces about and it carries it's weight badly. But, it just does it and gets on with things without complaining.

[millemille]

It was a Focus Sam2, but details schmetails

[weeksy]

Sam Jam, same thing. Lol

But in the interest of the thread, what's the difference? I don't know Ebikes, or even Focus bikes.

[millemille]

Sam Jam, same thing. Lol

But in the interest of the thread, what's the difference? I don't know Ebikes, or even Focus bikes.

The Jam and Sam are acoustic/Amish/meat powered/conventional.

The Jam2 and Sam2 are electric.

The Jam's are shorter travel, more xc and enduro biased and the Sam's are longer travel, DH biased.

[crust]

I'm seriously considering an ebike in the next couple of months. Have spent a lot of time googling and keep getting dragged down the - "ooh look thats nice, its only another £xxxx" route" usually starting with a Trek Rail 5 and ending up with £10,000 superbikes.

Yesterday I hired a Trak Rail 5 - gen 2, 626W jobbie. A quick sit on and adjust - set sag, seat height and we're off.

Played with the power settings - ECO, TOUR, EMTB (pedal hard = go hard, pedal soft = go soft), TURBO.

The first two are ok for road stuff as you're limited to 16ish mph any way. EMTB suited me best as Tour was a bit on/off - nothing/max power which was tricky in the tight, nadgery stuff whereas in EMTB (it seems to match your input better).

Both EMTB and Turbo had the power to get up stuff I didn't believe was possible and that was my issue, Ebike riding technique (for me / where I'm at in my head, at the moment, my ebike experience level) is very different to manual riding. e.g stop pedalling to take a dab and it's like hitting the brakes. Several times I didn't think the bike would get up the step/over the rock and a big stamp on the pedal and woosh we're over or in Turbo - the front wheels off the ground or the wheels spun, in EMTB the power input seemed softer/more progressive.

That's possibly where the Gen 2 vs Gen 3 consideration comes into it as I believe the Gen 3 allows you to tailor the power profile, I say possibly as more riding experience may make that a redundant consideration - is it worth £1k / £1.3k price increase, hmmm.

Handling was good, it went where I wanted it to (I don't think I pushed it nearly enough to really tell).

Suspension was the weak link, the fork was hard / harsh. To be fair I didnt check whether the damping was adjustable but if I bought a Rail 5 I'd want to play with the fork settings / improve it/them.

What did I learn, Couchie was quick everywhere on a Rail 5, Weeksy was on the pace everywhere on the antique LIV with crunchy drive train and bouncy suspension, so why would I look any further than a Rail 5 GEN 2?

Well, maybe a GEN 3, oh look the Rail 7 has a better fork and we're back down that rabbit hole from £4000 to £5750.

[millemille]

@crust, the way it works with Bosch motor and software you were riding yesterday is the different modes vary in 3 ways.

1. How much assistance they give, as a percentage of the amount of effort you put in.

2. Whether that assistance is intelligent (looking at speed, torque and gear ratio) or dumb (just giving a set amount of assistance).

3. How the assistance kicks in.

Eco and Turbo are dumb, as soon as you start pedalling they give you the maximum assistance they can within their preset limit, turbo gives about 300% assistance up to the maximum 250w allowed. Eco gives about 30% (I don't know exactly how much as I never use it...).

Tour (actually Tour+ to denote it's the updated version) and EMTB are intelligent, adjusting how much assistance they give depending on how quickly the pedals are going round, what gear you are in , how much torque/effort you are putting in nd how fast your going. EMTB varies the assistance between eco as a minimum (so if you're rolling along a smooth flat path at a good speed and barely putting in any effort it will wind the assistance down to eco) and turbo as a maximum (grinding up a steep hill, going very slowly and putting lots of effort in) and infinitely varies the power in between the eco and turbo limits accordingly. Tour+ winds the maximum down to about 50% of turbo. Both these modes also have an intelligent soft start on the assistance kicking in to try and manage torque and hence wheelspin. That's why if you in turbo on a steep technical climb and stop it's very difficult to get going again without wheelspin and it's often better to knock it back down to EMTB to get moving and then back into turbo once moving.

Tour+ and EMTB are trying to automatically manage the battery range to maximise it for you.

The best way to ride an emtb is to get into the habit of spinning the pedals around 60 rpm or higher, this is where the software allows the motor to make the most torque and it responds the fastest and also maximises battery range.

[millemille]

@crust the bike you were riding yesterday is a Gen 4 Bosch system.

The latest Bosch system is generally known as the Smart System.

[weeksy]

@crust, here's your issue.

If you're on an Ebike, I'm on an Ebike, when I'm pushing hard I've got 300w+ assistance, you've got 200w+ assistance. Now assuming we're on the same power ebike, you're still finding it just as hard as if we were both on manuals. We'd just be going a lot faster

This is where I think an Ebike lite may work. As I'll be on a manual, you'll have the extra power of ebike, which will then mean I'm struggling to keep up, or likely being left behind and you can recover or ride with less intensity.

All of this is local stuff, not Peak, peak is a different matter as we've established

[millemille]

@crust, here's your issue.

If you're on an Ebike, I'm on an Ebike, when I'm pushing hard I've got 300w+ assistance, you've got 200w+ assistance. Now assuming we're on the same power ebike, you're still finding it just as hard as if we were both on manuals. We'd just be going a lot faster

This is where I think an Ebike lite may work. As I'll be on a manual, you'll have the extra power of ebike, which will then mean I'm struggling to keep up, or likely being left behind and you can recover or ride with less intensity.

All of this is local stuff, not Peak, peak is a different matter as we've established

Your analogy works, but only so long as you are both in the same power mode. So if crust was in turbo and you were in tour then each of your total power output at the wheel, your own + motor, would be about the same even through crust is putting out less power of his own and you'd both be going the same speed. Your battery would last a lot longer, but you'd both be going at the same speed.

When I was riding at the back keeping crust and the feller on the Specialized company I wound it down to Tour+ to match their power output. That's where I almost had a heart attack coming up the hill where you sat holding the gate open because I forgot to put it back in turbo!

[Couchy]

There’s not just full power and light e-bikes there’s mid power bikes too. My full power trek is 85nm, the Spesh SL is 35nm and my orbea rise being mid power is 60nm. There’s several others that are 50-55nm. For the peaks I want full power for the steep climbs as it’s great fun as well as a challenge. The light really low power bikes I’m not into. Of course if you have full power you can turn it down when riding with others.
At my level I see no reason to buy a top end bike as my ability needs no more than a basic entry level bike so the rail 5 is a good choice.

[weeksy]

. For the peaks I want full power for the steep climbs as it’s great fun as well as a challenge.

Didn't really get that. I didn't find the climbs fun in the slightest. As far as a challenge, mmmm sort of, but not necessarily in a particularly good way. I didn't realt get the uphill aspect at all, other than being a means to an end. The rocks were just tiresome for climbing.
The one after the slabby climb which was fairl grass based and we chatted by the wall was about the most enjoyable up bit, possibly the bit where we took photo.

[Dodgy69]

Can you get a full days riding up the bumps on the 625wh battery. ?

[weeksy]

Can you get a full days riding up the bumps on the 625wh battery. ?

Depends mate. What sort of time, distance, incline?

Also depends who you are as a rider and fitness.

[Couchy]

. For the peaks I want full power for the steep climbs as it’s great fun as well as a challenge.

Didn't really get that. I didn't find the climbs fun in the slightest. As far as a challenge, mmmm sort of, but not necessarily in a particularly good way. I didn't realt get the uphill aspect at all, other than being a means to an end. The rocks were just tiresome for climbing.
The one after the slabby climb which was fairl grass based and we chatted by the wall was about the most enjoyable up bit, possibly the bit where we took photo.

Your bike prob not the best for making a climb fun though either spec wise or power wise. But you may not like climbs even on a better bike whereas I really enjoy them and the peaks has plenty. These climbs would be rubbish on a normal bike unless you have a fitness level way above average and joints that still work as they should

[weeksy]

. These climbs would be rubbish on a normal bike unless you have a fitness level way above average and joints that still work as they should

Of that, there's very little doubt

[millemille]

We all like different aspects of any sport we do, if we all liked the same thing it'd be a very singular and one dimensional hobby.

I love the technical, rocky, stuff. Both up and down. There's nothing better to me than getting to the top or bottom of something and looking back and thinking "how the fuck did I just manage that?!?!?!".

Other folks love smooth, flow line stuff.

The Peak District isn't really blessed with anything close to smooth and like @crust said several times during the day, the extremely rocky nature of the place is so far away from what you guys normally ride it takes some time to work out how to do anything more than survive it...

[weeksy]

Certain parts of potato alley I was debating whether riding down it was wise.