Oops, crashed the Tracer

[weeksy]

Glad you are okay, happens in the blink of an eye.

On the above points from @The Spin Doctor it can be frustarting in certain scenarios with keeping that safe distance, in that when I often give as much room as I think is safe, the knob head behind me thinks I'm bimbling and starts to put pressure on me. And this can sometimes manifest itself into some verbals, or light flashed etc.

I do t have mirrors, they can flash all they want

[Horse]

the knob head behind me thinks I'm bimbling and starts to put pressure on me. And this can sometimes manifest itself into some verbals, or light flashed etc.

[War story warning]
Minding my own business one day, about 30 in a 30, driver behind obviously thought I ought to be going faster - right on my tail. Police car going the other way, I gave them a big obvious wave, both coppers waved back (albeit looking puzzled). Driver suddenly far more relaxed ...

[Scootabout]

Well, someone has to say it as everyone else has skirted round it.

If you hit the back of the vehicle ahead, no matter whether you were looking away for a moment, or the van ahead braked unexpectedly hard...

YOU WERE TOO CLOSE.

I know I'm stating the obvious but our following distance should be able to cope with the vehicle ahead stopping dead after hitting a brick wall.

Unfortunately I don't know what my following distance was, but I was in a 30 mph limit in very light, flowing traffic. I'd normally be allowing at least the HWC stopping distance for that of 23m for that. If I looked away for, say, a second, and the van had begun to brake hard the instant I looked away, I'd have carried on for 14m and the van would have stopped after 9m (HWC number). So I'd have had a stopping distance (thinking + braking) of 23m-5m = 18m. That would have been insufficient to stop in time. (It felt like a lot less than that but my memory is clear only for the last few metres as I desperately applied the anchors.)

So what I'm trying to say is that leaving HWC stopping distances is OK if you're looking forward but not if you're going to take a one second look to the side. And if that's right does that mean we must always leave a gap of, say, 3 seconds plus to allow for distractions? I'd say ideally yes but in practice that's very difficult in traffic.

So whilst, going forward (see what I did there?) I'll try to leave a bigger gap when I can, I'm also thinking about other factors. One is the positioning that you mentioned, to see van mirrors, where possible. Another is fitness to ride. I'd ridden for about two hours, much of it on B roads and unclassified roads, with just a brief stop for petrol. That's not unusual for me, but maybe I was tired? Another factor could be dehydration. I thought I'd drunk enough water prior to the ride, but I remember when I stopped for petrol I had a swig of water and noticed feeling a bit thirsty. Later I realised I'd only drunk about 150 ml of water. So if I was a bit dehydrated and a bit tired, maybe I wasn't as focused as I should have been?

[crust]

Or maybe you weren't close enough.

If you'd been the obligatory delivery scooter rider distance of 2" then the impact would have been minimal.

[Horse]

You've done a good and honest job of looking for 'contributory factors' and identified a wide range of them.

Re dehydration, I used to carry water and orange juice. One trainee insisted he was fine, didn't need a drink. I insisted he did. He downed 500ml water and another of juice.

[As an aside, 'GIGO' applies. If a trainee doesn't have 'pit stops', they may be heading for dehydration]

Following distance is a movable feast. As you say, yours would have been fine if you'd been looking forwards. Any idea why you looked away? Actually, that doesn't matter, because reasons to look away might occur at any time. You'll often hear the term 'distracted driving'. 'Different attractions' is an alternative term. But the important thing, in many circumstances, is unpredictability. It's common to see tailgating on motorways, with drivers focused just on the car in front and driving on the limits (or beyond) of their reactions.

Talking of reactions, a mate said that the Highway Code is wrong with 'thinking' and 'braking' distances, it should also include an "oh #@*☆!" distance, where you continue on without doing anything useful. You might not believe what you see, or you freeze at the controls. Then there's 'perception reaction time', I probably don't need to explain that.

Something I don't think that you have mentioned is having an 'out', an escape route.

[Bigyin]

Re dehydration, I used to carry water and orange juice. One trainee insisted he was fine, didn't need a drink. I insisted he did. He downed 500ml water and another of juice.

I have a training/assessment ride lined up tomorrow so have dug out my camelback to make sure i have sufficient fluids due to the forecast temperatures

For the OP if the bike is exactly how you want it and they do decide to write it off it might be worth looking at the "buy the salvage" but as others have said unseen frame or fork damage could be expensive. Most insurance companies palm off their written off bikes to Copart nowadays for auction sale so maybe someone else has experience of direct buy back of a wreck from insurance. I know when my Multi was written off Copart took possession of it within a few days of the accident

[Demannu]

I'll have the pillion pegs if they're going to scrap it!

[Scootabout]

You've done a good and honest job of looking for 'contributory factors' and identified a wide range of them.

Thanks, Malc.

Following distance is a movable feast. As you say, yours would have been fine if you'd been looking forwards. Any idea why you looked away? Actually, that doesn't matter, because reasons to look away might occur at any time.

On reflection, I think I was daydreaming about my schooldays. I went to school in Winchester ('in, not 'at'). One of my teachers used to live in Kingsworthy, which I was passing through. I remember looking around and wondering what sort of house he might have lived in. So there was that, and maybe some complacency about being close to 'home' - my mother lives in the same road as the house I lived in for 11 years, just two miles from there. As you say, it doesn't matter in the sense that a different distraction could occur in the future, but I feel it helps to know about possible factors, like the dehydration, tiredness & close-to-home points, that can in theory be remedied in future.

Something I don't think that you have mentioned is having an 'out', an escape route.

Another good point, thanks.

For anyone who says I'm beating myself up too much, I haven't hung around this forum and its predecessors for 22 years to then pass up an opportunity to over-analyse (But thanks, actually, to those who've said not to beat myself up too much.)

[Horse]

On reflection, I think I was daydreaming about my schooldays.

Haven't checked back, but I think you mentioned two hours?

I cringe a bit when people do the "I'm used to it, me, I don't stop." Well, perhaps you don't, but most people's concentration wanes after two hours. Three and it really drops off.

That, with dehydration, and the "I'm almost home" mental switch off ... And a final twist of shit happens.

Perhaps there's a few points to be aware of, that you've already identified. Another is self-awareness, 'monitoring' concentration. One indicator is that where you are concentrating on the road ahead; if it 'drops' from the distance and gets closer, that's a good indicator. If you can't 'refocus', time for a break.

This message was brought to you by Safety Nanny. Your not crashing is important to us, please do not fall off.

[Noggin]

I did my only ever stoppie on the TLs due to getting distracted by a kestrel above the road. The car in front suddenly found the road the wanted to turn into and stopped to turn right Well, he might have stopped to look at the road cos he didn't actually take the turn! But maybe the sight of a red bike standing on it's nose made him drive on! LOL

If we'd have been on a NSL road, I'd have hit him for sure, luckily it was through a village (on a main road) where I always did 30 as signed.


For visibility, one of the most unnerving things for me was driving my transit back from Pembery with a friend following on his bike. I could hear him the whole time but I only ever saw him in my mirrors when turning at a junction

I was taught to ride so I could see the car in fronts mirrors (especially lorries and vans) but that experience made it much more obvious! He overtook when we got to the motorway, but from Pembery to the motorway, I could only here the bike

I tend to ride towards the centre line - a bit of visibility ahead, and (hopefully) a bit of escape route between the traffic if necessary.

BUT - we all get distracted sometimes. Glad it wasn't bad for you and hope the bike isn't too bad

[The Spin Doctor]

I note my previous response didn't get a 'like'

Glad you are okay, happens in the blink of an eye.

On the above points from @The Spin Doctor it can be frustarting in certain scenarios with keeping that safe distance, in that when I often give as much room as I think is safe, the knob head behind me thinks I'm bimbling and starts to put pressure on me. And this can sometimes manifest itself into some verbals, or light flashed etc.

Things do happen in the blink of an eye, which is why:

a) I try to avoid surprising the driver / rider behind me - that usually provokes a "why didn't you turn where I told you" tirade from SWMBO when I ignore her directive to turn when I'm alongside the turning she wanted, in order to avoid having to brake and indicate at the last moment - I simply carry straight on and turn round at a safe point

b) I try to restrict the sightseeing moments to roads that are genuinely quiet

c) I'm always particularly cautious behind vehicles I can't see round or over

And I also agree that attempting to maintain Highway Code following distances are a recipe for frustration in heavy traffic, with other drivers (and bikers) seeing a safe stopping distance as either a gap to fill or turn through.

So I follow closer than the HC says I should! But that's when I switch off all the distractions and focus on maintaining good situational awareness so that I'm not caught by SURPRISE! and forced to brake suddenly which puts me at risk from being hit from behind (and yes, been there, done that too).

If I've got a particularly aggressive driver behind me, I'll either filter and get away from them that way, or simply pull over and let them pass me. They can then go hassle someone else.

[The Spin Doctor]

Unfortunately I don't know what my following distance was, but I was in a 30 mph limit in very light, flowing traffic. I'd normally be allowing at least the HWC stopping distance for that of 23m for that. If I looked away for, say, a second, and the van had begun to brake hard the instant I looked away, I'd have carried on for 14m and the van would have stopped after 9m (HWC number). So I'd have had a stopping distance (thinking + braking) of 23m-5m = 18m. That would have been insufficient to stop in time. (It felt like a lot less than that but my memory is clear only for the last few metres as I desperately applied the anchors.)

Forget the HC 'thinking + braking' distances - totally inaccurate.

If you hit the brakes hard enough to trigger the ABS, even only on the rear wheel as it lifts, from 30 mph you can stop a Tracer in five bike lengths without difficult - say 10 metres. I've done it on that bike as part of my "how does the bike stop" test when I picked the bike up in NZ for the Shiny Side Up tour. That includes the 'muscle twitch' time from the moment you make the mental decision to brake.

As you say, if it takes ONE SECOND to realise there is a problem THEN hit the brakes, you've travelled 13.4 metres. Add that up and that's 23.4 metres. Touch and go if the van was already stationary at the moment your attention moved back to it. If you detected it braking, the calculation gets more complicated but essentially, the fact that it's still moving means you should have had time to stop.

So it's likely either you were closer than 23 metres... it's a surprisingly long distance and most riders hugely underestimate it when I ask them to pace it out. Or you took a fraction longer to realise it was slowing... which meant you were closer than 23 metres by the time you hit the brakes. Or your initial speed was higher.

Those are the options as I see it.

What's really gutting is that you so NEARLY got away with it.

So what I'm trying to say is that leaving HWC stopping distances is OK if you're looking forward but not if you're going to take a one second look to the side. And if that's right does that mean we must always leave a gap of, say, 3 seconds plus to allow for distractions? I'd say ideally yes but in practice that's very difficult in traffic.

I've just covered this in my response to Tricol, but I'll add this - the HC distances are MINIMUM following distances, not a 'recommended' distance.

They were calculated as allowing JUST enough time to react to a actual emergency and stop.

They allow no margin for error, and in particular the HC ignores the crucial 'recognition time' which involves the cognitive task of identifying the threat, assessing the threat and deciding that emergency action is needed. If we're 'on-task', this recognition time is quick and is basically the 'thinking' time the HC talks about.

But realistically, this is only achievable if we're already primed to take action - it's the response to the examiner slapping the dashboard to signal it's time to do the emergency stop, for example. If we're 'off-task' and thinking about something else, it can take THREE SECONDS to identify / assess / decide before we make a move for the brakes. Then add the HC's distances! This three second hiatus has been determined from police accident investigations and independent research studies on driver / rider behaviour.

So whilst, going forward (see what I did there?) I'll try to leave a bigger gap when I can, I'm also thinking about other factors. One is the positioning that you mentioned, to see van mirrors, where possible.

It's easy to wit-wander - there are any number of distractions when we ride - and then be taken completely by surprise to something that's blindingly obvious to anyone else watching the situation develop.

So the main reason for doing things like this and making positive adjustments to our following distance / position or changing gear / covering the brakes etc is that it focuses our brain back 'on-task'.

And the triggers for getting back on-task can be 'learned cues'. For example, I'm very alert to triangular warning signs - getting riders searching them out is a key point of the proactive part of my courses. I don't just tell people that signs tell you what a hazard is, but to actively search out the signs (once you do that for even half an hour, they start popping out of the background as the brain learned they matter) and then to search out the hazard that the sign warned about and to assess issues like lines-of-sight, the presence of vehicles, the presence of 'Vision Blockers' that might hide vehicles, and poor surfaces where we might be taking evasive action. There are plenty of others. And if I can't see any 'cues', then I can wind down the attention level... but we HAVE to be able to bring the brain back on-task before emergencies develop.

Of course, sometimes we make the problem for ourselves. Some years back, a rider was vlogging when he completely failed to notice an HGV turning right into a haulage yard ahead of him. There was actually plenty of time to spot the developing situation - it was happening right in front of him - and although he retrospectively tried to claim that he had "seen and assessed the situation", he clearly only spotted the truck 1s before impact - that was when he broke off his monologue into his mike and shouted "whooooaaaa".

This is an excellent illustration of what I mean when I talk about being 'off-task'.

Another is fitness to ride. I'd ridden for about two hours, much of it on B roads and unclassified roads, with just a brief stop for petrol. That's not unusual for me, but maybe I was tired? Another factor could be dehydration. I thought I'd drunk enough water prior to the ride, but I remember when I stopped for petrol I had a swig of water and noticed feeling a bit thirsty. Later I realised I'd only drunk about 150 ml of water. So if I was a bit dehydrated and a bit tired, maybe I wasn't as focused as I should have been?

They are possible factors. Tiredness, dehydration and heat are all factors which affect mental performance.

I guess the point I make here is that we bang on so much about 'skills' when we talk about rider training here in the UK that we often forget that riding is actually far more of a mental game than most of us ever realise. There's far too much emphasis on 'correct performance' for the IAM test, and far too little "what made you think that way when you made that decision' analysis. And so we struggle to develop the necessary insight to answer our own questions.

For those who think I'm being hyper-critical or over-analytical and should just let 'shit happen', I let it happen to me too many times early on in my riding career, and was lucky to get away with some of the crashes or near-crashes that I had. That's why I try not to let the same thing happen twice.

[The Spin Doctor]

I did my only ever stoppie on the TLs due to getting distracted by a kestrel above the road. The car in front suddenly found the road the wanted to turn into and stopped to turn right Well, he might have stopped to look at the road cos he didn't actually take the turn! But maybe the sight of a red bike standing on it's nose made him drive on! LOL

If we'd have been on a NSL road, I'd have hit him for sure, luckily it was through a village (on a main road) where I always did 30 as signed.

So easy... done much the same, only I didn't get off so lightly. I was looking at some waders out on the salt-marshes near Chichester (you can't see them now, there's a hedge in the way) and went straight on when the road went right... at around 80 mph. I nearly saved it but clipped a bit of Armco protecting a ditch going under the dual carriageway and high-sided back onto the road. That hurt.

For visibility, one of the most unnerving things for me was driving my transit back from Pembery with a friend following on his bike. I could hear him the whole time but I only ever saw him in my mirrors when turning at a junction

I was taught to ride so I could see the car in fronts mirrors (especially lorries and vans) but that experience made it much more obvious! He overtook when we got to the motorway, but from Pembery to the motorway, I could only here the bike

That is a REALLY good story and one that should be told more often.

I used to drive a van with only mirrors for rear view and had a very near miss when I moved out to overtake a Morris Minor coming out of a left-hand bend, only to spot a CBR600 in a lock-to-lock slapper with smoke pouring off the front tyre trying to overtake me - he'd come straight out of the blind spot behind me at silly speed. I know that, because I squeezed as close to the Moggie as possible to give him a chance. He was able to get off the brakes, regain control (ish) and run up onto the pavement on the other side of the road. He was still going so fast he got level with me before he was able to slow down and pull back into the road.

[Hot_Air]

we bang on so much about 'skills' when we talk about rider training here in the UK that we often forget that riding is actually far more of a mental game than most of us ever realise. There's far too much emphasis on 'correct performance'

Well said. And while too much emphasis on ‘correct performance’ may be a genuine issue in advanced tests, the problem starts at the L-test level.

However, in traditional advanced riding, I feel there’s also too much emphasis on making progress.

[The Spin Doctor]

Well said. And while too much emphasis on ‘correct performance’ may be a genuine issue in advanced tests, the problem starts at the L-test level.

However, in traditional advanced riding, I feel there’s also too much emphasis on making progress.

I do agree that CBT in particular is all about 'doing the right things' and there are also plenty of instructors who teach passing the test itself as a 'drill' that has to be followed - you used to be able to recognise instructors who'd been trained by CSM from their rigid adherence to particular ways of doing things.

But the actual bike test is surprisingly 'open' in terms of how the examiner marks it. Yes, there are some 'must-do's' such as the right turn lifesavers but a lot of the actual decisions the examiner makes when it comes to a driving fault or a serious fault are actually along the lines of 'did you put yourself or anyone else at risk?'

A good example is how we respond to speed limits. You won't fail the bike test for a few mph over the limit so long as you correct yourself IF there were no risks to that speed. Although it was a bit exceptional, I had one candidate actually get marked for a minor fault for 38 in a 30! - the examiner quizzed her "what the speed limit in a 30 limit?". She looked puzzled and said "well, 30". "So why did you do 38 in a 30?" And she said, "the signs are hard to see as they are under the trees", and he agreed and commented that as soon as she'd spotted the signs, even though she went in well over the legal limit, she'd done all the right things - check the mirrors, then applied the brakes to bring the speed down progressively, and maintained that speed down the steep hill and past the speed camera.

But you WILL fail if you persistently drive / ride at well BELOW the limit because you're now seen as potentially putting yourself at risk from other road users. Years ago on a test I had a candidate ride everywhere at 25 mph - despite me coaching him for three days to ride at or about 30 where it was safe to do so - and being very angry that the examiner had failed a 'safe' rider. He told me that he'd been taught to drive that way 30 years earlier and so he'd ignored what I'd said as I clearly didn't know what I was talking about. He simply couldn't see that if he tried that out on the road post-test, he'd have cars tailgating him and squeezing past at inopportune moment.

[Noggin]

we bang on so much about 'skills' when we talk about rider training here in the UK that we often forget that riding is actually far more of a mental game than most of us ever realise. There's far too much emphasis on 'correct performance'

Well said. And while too much emphasis on ‘correct performance’ may be a genuine issue in advanced tests, the problem starts at the L-test level.

However, in traditional advanced riding, I feel there’s also too much emphasis on making progress.

I've definitely talked to a lot of people who were taught to 'pass the test', both car and bike! I was lucky for the car in that I had driven a few vehicles on farmland as a kid so had a reasonable idea of how to drive - the instructor could then teach me more about driving, not just to pass the test Also, my SDad told me that I had to 'learn to drive AFTER I passed my test'. That confused me at the time, but I understood as I drove more and more!!

I did my only ever stoppie on the TLs due to getting distracted by a kestrel above the road. The car in front suddenly found the road the wanted to turn into and stopped to turn right Well, he might have stopped to look at the road cos he didn't actually take the turn! But maybe the sight of a red bike standing on it's nose made him drive on! LOL

If we'd have been on a NSL road, I'd have hit him for sure, luckily it was through a village (on a main road) where I always did 30 as signed.

So easy... done much the same, only I didn't get off so lightly. I was looking at some waders out on the salt-marshes near Chichester (you can't see them now, there's a hedge in the way) and went straight on when the road went right... at around 80 mph. I nearly saved it but clipped a bit of Armco protecting a ditch going under the dual carriageway and high-sided back onto the road. That hurt.

For visibility, one of the most unnerving things for me was driving my transit back from Pembery with a friend following on his bike. I could hear him the whole time but I only ever saw him in my mirrors when turning at a junction

I was taught to ride so I could see the car in fronts mirrors (especially lorries and vans) but that experience made it much more obvious! He overtook when we got to the motorway, but from Pembery to the motorway, I could only here the bike

That is a REALLY good story and one that should be told more often.

I used to drive a van with only mirrors for rear view and had a very near miss when I moved out to overtake a Morris Minor coming out of a left-hand bend, only to spot a CBR600 in a lock-to-lock slapper with smoke pouring off the front tyre trying to overtake me - he'd come straight out of the blind spot behind me at silly speed. I know that, because I squeezed as close to the Moggie as possible to give him a chance. He was able to get off the brakes, regain control (ish) and run up onto the pavement on the other side of the road. He was still going so fast he got level with me before he was able to slow down and pull back into the road.

My van was the same, panel van with no windows past the front seats

I think I had a really good bike instructor as he did teach us stuff that I can see others haven't learnt or that friends seem surprised at in conversation

One of the first things he did was show us the lack of visibility from an artic to the rear, how it turns to take corners (so don't undertake when you think he's turned the indicator stick the wrong way) and also talked a lot about positioning in a 'line of sight' for all vehicles

It helped me a bit having a SDad that drove lorries a bit so he often talked about not seeing bikes or little cars that 'hide' behind trucks - his comments on cyclists ignoring left indicator because they assume from his road position that he was actually turning right

As a result of all that, in both cars and on bikes I generally position myself so I can be seen in the drivers wing mirror and the rear view (if they have one!). Rear views are not always positioned properly or used well, but (in daylight) it's fairly likely that a headlight in a drivers wing mirror will be seen (cross fingers!)

Having said that, I never assume that the person in front has seen me!!! Still did that stoppie though - and threw the TLs at that Astra!!

[Horse]

a) I try to avoid surprising the driver / rider behind me - that usually provokes a "why didn't you turn where I told you" tirade from SWMBO when I ignore her directive to turn when I'm alongside the turning she wanted, in order to avoid having to brake and indicate at the last moment

The ex-Filly would occasionally point at a side road and say "Ooh let's go that way."

After I did that one day, she recalibrated the amount of road space allowed.

In that instance there was a good view into the side road and, although it was a 'tight' turn, we went into it at about 50 (helped by being a more gentle angle, not 90°).

[Scootabout]

I note my previous response didn't get a 'like'

I've given you two likes, now

But realistically, this is only achievable if we're already primed to take action - it's the response to the examiner slapping the dashboard to signal it's time to do the emergency stop, for example. If we're 'off-task' and thinking about something else, it can take THREE SECONDS to identify / assess / decide before we make a move for the brakes. Then add the HC's distances! This three second hiatus has been determined from police accident investigations and independent research studies on driver / rider behaviour.

That's very interesting. Obviously, leaving four or five seconds gap isn't going to be realistic very often, especially in urban traffic, but that's not really the point. For me the point is that the consequences of daydreaming can be pretty dramatic. Although I guess I've learnt that anyway

Thanks for the various additional tips and illustrations. And thanks to Noggin, too.

[The Spin Doctor]

I've given you two likes, now

That's very interesting. Obviously, leaving four or five seconds gap isn't going to be realistic very often, especially in urban traffic, but that's not really the point. For me the point is that the consequences of daydreaming can be pretty dramatic. Although I guess I've learnt that anyway

With any crash, I'd say the main thing is to understand it, and appreciate what can be done in future. It's when we have no idea what happened, nor what can be done in future that we struggle to put it behind us.

Thanks for the various additional tips and illustrations. And thanks to Noggin, too.

Welcome... and maybe they'll get a few of us thinking

Hope the damage is fixable and you're back in the road in the not-too-distant future!

[mangocrazy]

Hope the damage is fixable and you're back in the road in the not-too-distant future!

I'd prefer it if he was off the road and on the bike...