What creates a vehicle's 'soul' or 'character'?

[Mr Moofo]

It's about bits dropping off, wayward engineering and being difficult to start ...

[Count Steer]

Soul is very much an individual opinion. It's often heard opined that big twins configurations such as Ducati,Guzzi etc have soul,while (whilst,for CS) in line fours are soul free sewing machines.....

Weeksy maybe summed it up well,by saying it's a bike that is greater than the sum of it's parts,nothing special in the configuration of those parts,just a magic recipe....

Wot? Eh? Who, me? I never said that. I loved the (new) K12 engine (had the old 'brick' version too and didn't think much of that one). I just preferred the GS as it was, as you say, 'just a magic recipe' and there may be another one on the menu. Whether it will be as magic as the old one could be interesting as the whole experience will be rather different.

Does 'whilst' no longer annoy.

Just pointing out that I'm different than the IL4 'soul-free' contingent.

[Hairybiker84]

It's about bits dropping off, wayward engineering and being difficult to start ...

Perfectly describes the KTM EXC400 I had, that didn't have soul or character to me though, it was (quite literally) a pain in the arse and wallet

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

It's about bits dropping off, wayward engineering and being difficult to start ...

Perfectly describes the KTM EXC400 I had, that didn't have soul or character to me though, it was (quite literally) a pain in the arse and wallet

You should try an Italian Husqvarna

[Bigyin]

I never really thought that any of the IL4's i owned have had any "character" but the last couple of V Twins i owned have if you go by the descriptions most have given so far for their idea of character

My first BMW did as it was a bag of shit with a mind of its own and would die without warning at the most inappropriate times ....... outside lane of the M74 in heavy traffic at night springs to mind when it lost all electrical power and off went lights/engine etc. Sometimes it was flawless , others moody as a teenager with a broken phone

[Couchy]

Character is engine feel and flaws in the bike but mainly engine feel which for me is singles, twins and V4's. IL4 unless a crossplane crank just don't do it for me

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

Character is engine feel and flaws in the bike but mainly engine feel which for me is singles, twins and V4's. IL4 unless a crossplane crank just don't do it for me

Isn't that liking some engine configurations more than others and calling it character in an attempt to appear to have more refined taste?

[dern]

I don't understand the question. I'm not trying to be difficult, I've just never understood what people meant by the character or soul of a bike or a car. They all have characteristics, some I like and some I don't. If they have enough of the ones I like to ignore the ones I don't like I keep the bike. I would work to change the characteristics I didn't like if they bothered me that much. This isn't what you mean though I guess. Sorry, I don't really get it. I don't give them names either.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Character is engine feel and flaws in the bike but mainly engine feel which for me is singles, twins and V4's. IL4 unless a crossplane crank just don't do it for me

Isn't that liking some engine configurations more than others and calling it character in an attempt to appear to have more refined taste?

I remember reading an article in one of the mags years ago. They took a few bikes with different engine configs then covered 'em in loads of boxy cardboard and hid the dials in an attempt to conceal what they were. A whole range of things, all different engine configs. Then they got a load of readers to ride them.

As you can probably guess there were wildly varying opinions as to what the engines in the bikes actually were based purely on feel. People saying 1000cc twins were 600cc IL4s, all sorts

[Dodgy69]

This is what character looks like... With its front disc, engine oil in swingarm, fuel in frame, belt drive and a few roadside rescues. On a good day, it was good fun believe it or not. Nice vibes aswel.

[Mr. Dazzle]

The Bonneville is spectacularly shit from any objective standpoint, but it's also the vehicle which manages to make me smile every time I wheel it out of the garage. That must be this character thing.

TBF, probably the second most characterful vehicle I've owned - after the Bonnie - was actually Mrs. D's Honda Civic Type-R. It was hard to drive sedately, the whole car just felt like an excited 3 year old tugging on your hand going while bouncing up and down and shouting c'mon c'mon c'mon, let's go, let's goooooooo! I couldnt' tell you WHY that was, it just was.

[Skub]

This is what character looks like... With its front disc, engine oil in swingarm, fuel in frame, belt drive and a few roadside rescues. On a good day, it was good fun believe it or not. Nice vibes aswel.

I always thought that would have been a great bike with a different/better donkey.

[Count Steer]

The Bonneville is spectacularly shit from any objective standpoint, but it's also the vehicle which manages to make me smile every time I wheel it out of the garage. That must be this character thing.

TBF, probably the second most characterful vehicle I've owned - after the Bonnie - was actually Mrs. D's Honda Civic Type-R. It was hard to drive sedately, the whole car just felt like an excited 3 year old tugging on your hand going while bouncing up and down and shouting c'mon c'mon c'mon, let's go, let's goooooooo! I couldnt' tell you WHY that was, it just was.

Really like that when a car (or bike) feels 'eager'. Some can go quickly but feel like you have to give them the equivalent of a jab in the ribs, some are quick but are a bit 'ho hum' about it, but occasionally you get in one that seems to go 'Waahaaay! Hang onto your hat, we're off! Wooohoo!'.

[Dodgy69]

Wheel bearings lasted as long as tyres aswel. I actually thought the belts were great, never did a thing with them. Mine never snapped either.

[The Spin Doctor]

Didn't some of the bloc engineers get snaffled by the Japanese companies?

Suzuki, IIRC.

[mangocrazy]

For me its all about 'feel' of the engine but i think I have some weird synesthesia shit going on

I'd agree with that. For me the engine essentially defines the motorcycle, to a very large extent. You are directly connected to it - it's whirring away underneath you and the way it makes its power and the engine characteristics are a major part of the feel you get from the bike. Brakes and suspension also add to the character of the bike, but they can far more easily be modified if you want a different feel or way of working. It's far harder to do that with an engine.

It's probably why I've never been that enthused by IL4 engined bikes. I rode a mate's CBR600 a couple of years ago and to me it just felt like a food processor with blancmange brakes and suspension. I'd swapped bikes with him and he rode my 1000cc V-twin Falco. I couldn't wait to get back on it. The only way the CBR was superior (in my eyes) was being able to find neutral at traffic lights. In every other way it was inferior and felt bland and soulless.

It is also a case of what you're used to. I'm used to the grunt of a V-twin (Falco, Ducati) or single (Duke 690), but I also appreciate the rather more sophisticated power delivery of a V4 (VFR) and the plain bonkers light switch power band of a two-stroke (350LC). All of those engine configurations to my eyes have real character. Perhaps I rode the 'wrong' IL4 if I was looking for character - I dunno...

[Mr. Dazzle]

People always talk about grunty V twins, but ISTR that if you take pretty much any of the big litre 4-cyl bikes and overlay their torque/power curves on a comparable V twin the 4 has more go pretty much everywhere.

Again, the mags used to love pointing that out.

Electric motors suffer from the same thing. Having a fat ample torque curve at all speeds actually feels slower

[mangocrazy]

We are actually discussing 'character' and 'soul', which don't lend themselves to dyno charts.

[mangocrazy]

Didn't some of the bloc engineers get snaffled by the Japanese companies?

Suzuki, IIRC.

Ernst Degner defected to Suzuki with all of Walter Kaaden's 2T tuning secrets. He never dared race in any of the Eastern bloc countries afterwards.

[Mr Moofo]

This is what character looks like... With its front disc, engine oil in swingarm, fuel in frame, belt drive and a few roadside rescues. On a good day, it was good fun believe it or not. Nice vibes aswel.

See my post ...