How many of you have had professional coaching to improve your road riding

[Yorick]

I had 2 advanced plod riders at Donington once. I was put with them to show them the lines.
They were slow due to their rigid training. After they told me I was wrong and their way was right.

So next session I passed them down Holywood about 40 MPH faster than them. And lapped them 4 laps later.

I smiled as I walked past them in the paddock.

[weeksy]

But I do value learning in all sports

I can honestly say that I've never had anyone suggest that they haven't benefited from a training session.

However, I changed my views on the type of training that I provided. I ditched formal 'advanced test' training, moving instead to more of targeted courses - problem solving, or improving specific areas.

It's interesting that the personalities of trainers is a factor that may influence people to even have the thought of 'training' being enough to put them off. Every now and again here, there are comments made that the mindset that trainers (like me and Spin) of planning for where things might go wrong is 'boring' or similar.

But everyone - however much some might deny it - already thinks like that to a certain degree. If you have ever braked for a corner, then you have demonstrated that type of thinking.


'Riding' is a classic example of Donald Rumsfeld's 'knowns and unknowns'. Many riders are completely oblivious to how easier riding could be, or how much more control they could have.

They may already have control.

What irritates me is that comments like the above implies you believe you're in some way better. What quantifies better? If we both get home, are we not equal? If I get home first am I not better?

What's the quantifying factors?

I base my riding on pleasure, how can you believe you can increase my pleasure?

[Yorick]

My instructing was fun. They could already ride.
I just showed them how to have fun on track.

But I did show many how to brake properly.

[Horse]

I learned the hard way. But still survived.

And you spent many years instructing others?

[Bigyin]

To what end? What do you think you don't know, enough about, so need to improve?

Same questions apply

This is not me looking to see what i need to improve or learn more of to help in instruction, this is me doing a bit of research among the rest of the forum to see how many of its members have had post test formal tuition or have just made it up as they have gone along or learned through other means.

So far only 3 have had any formal post test tuition and 1 of them was through training as a Police Motorcyclist so it came with the role

[Horse]

To what end? What do you think you don't know, enough about, so need to improve?

Same questions apply

This is not me looking to see what i need to improve or learn more of

Yes.

The same question applies to anyone else.

Is it slow speed control, high speed confidence, urban riding, slippery surface confidence, cornering, braking, stopping, pulling away in tight areas, braking in corners ... ?

If it's a generic 'good riding' request, send them to the IAM. if they want to eventually get a whole set of different coloured badges, then RoSPA. A fast day out, Rapid. i2i for control and confidence, as already advised. etc. Spin for something very different to the mainstream.

The biggest problem, though, will be getting them to actually commit and book.

[Rockburner]

Never had professional training (sorry Spin), but listened, learned and observed fast and professional riders often enough to pick up a few nuggets.

Doesn't mean my riding is any good though unless i actively try to apply that learning, which doesn't happen all the time.

Had to be said, I've seen some atrocious riding from IAM riders, pretty much due to "arrogance" or "self-importance" in every case. My riding is bad enough without some piece of paper telling me I have some sort of permission to be even worse.

[Yorick]

Please don't let this go down the route of the dross in Staying Alive.

[Bigyin]

Please don't let this go down the route of the dross in Staying Alive.

The thread wasn't intended as an instructing debate as i would have put it in Staying Alive ....it was a simple question to see who had paid for post test instruction to "improve" their road riding as opposed to those who learned as they rode on their own or with others

[Yorick]

Please don't let this go down the route of the dross in Staying Alive.

The thread wasn't intended as an instructing debate as i would have put it in Staying Alive ....it was a simple question to see who had paid for post test instruction to "improve" their road riding as opposed to those who learned as they rode on their own or with others

Exactly. It's interesting.

Just keep the "experts" away.

[Whysub]

Passed my bike test in 1977 at 17, first bike a week later was a Goldwing. Stupid, but there you go.

Fast forward to 2000, 23 years of self taught riding. Then I go on a Police Advanced course. Was that an eye opener, and after it I wondered just how I had survived 23 years without an accident.

But fantastic instructors and my listening and doing what they said got me through and attained a pass. And a pass every year at the refresher courses. Bikes for work got better, faster and far more reliant on technology in those years. ABS was rare on job bikes back in 2000, let alone traction control and electronic switchable mapping.

Spent 19 happy years doing surveillance work, when everything you are taught on the advanced course and refreshers has to be chucked away. As soon as that job was over for the day, I had to get myself back into riding to the standards taught.

Had ridden on blues and twos at the last few refreshers, but never had them on our bikes. That bit of the training was fairly irrelevant, but i was amazed at what the general motorist did when they see a bike with the blue lights going. I hated riding with them on, and was glad they weren't fitted to our bikes, no matter how covert they can be now.

[Potter]

I haven't had formal civvy training but I have ridden with these types occasionally and as people have said it's the attitude that kills it for me.

It's usually the people that have made some sort of career out of it (or in QHSE) and they have a vested interest in creating some sort of mystique around whatever it is they preach. Condescension is usually your reward for any suggestion that they might not be the seer of all things.

It turns most people off that just do stuff for fun.

[Scotsrich]

Never had any.

I passed my test when it was ride round in a circle with an examiner watching so so haven’t even had the experience of CBT etc so it was basically learning by keeping up with your mates.

It’s never been a ‘thing’ with the crowd I know. In fact I don’t know anyone who’s had extra training. Mind you most of them are of the same generation as me.

I did once fill in an application form for a Bikesave course at some show or other but never heard back from them. So at least I tried

No doubt it would make me smoother/quicker/safer but I’ve been riding nearly 40 years and I’m still here.

[weeksy]

One funny thing though, i have had training on MTBs... I have training upcoming on MTBs too in July. But over the years i have found i'm TERRIBLE at learning. Really really rubbish at it with stuff like this. But the difference really is... When i get training for MTBs i can then enjoy things more, i can jump more, drop more, go faster... Which in turn increases my fun and laughs out on the trails..
I can't see for a second what training could give me, what could it bring, more speed ? Errrrrrm i'm already destroying speed limits... Safter? well, i've not crashed on the road in 20 years, i can't be that terrible.... More fun? Mmmmm motorbikes are not 'fun' in the same way, well, not on the road, but deffo on circuits they can be. But will it help with fun on circuit...
No is the answer in my experience, a fast/safe road rider isn't necessarily a fast track rider, often the opposite as Yorick saw and as i've seen many many times. It's a different game, a different sport and the riders who do one well, often don't do the other well.

I'm sure i could 'learn' more... but i'm not honestly convinced it would give me any more as a person or a rider.

[Horse]

Please don't let this go down the route of the dross in Staying Alive.

Well, so far, there's not exactly been a lot of civvie road instructors posting on the thread. I have, and gave BY some suggestions.

[The Spin Doctor]

Before I start I'll make it clear I heartily approve of those such as yourself,Spin and Horse who are passionate about the topic and I don't wish to denigrate any of you in any way.

But.

It's not for me.

Reasons?

I dunno really,I did the old Blue Riband thing years ago and at the time I found it interesting and yes I learned stuff of value,so it's not like I'm saying it's not for me when I haven't dipped my toe in the water. I'd never tell anyone not to gain as much knowledge as possible.

The whole crowd of them were continually obsessed with their version of how to ride properly and which gear (usually BMW) was superior,all the specs for a pair of gloves etc. All these things are good in themselves,but it's not why I ride a bike and...

these are not my people.

That's probably what it boils down to.

And that is a REALLY good description of why I set up Survival Skills. I got utterly fed up with being told "how to ride properly" when what was actually being delivered was less 'training' and more a drill leading to a totally inflexible 'our way or the highway' approach to riding which was of course put to the test so see that you conformed, all based on learned-by-rote mantras rather than any genuine understanding of the issues.

I wanted to deliver coaching that was genuinely client-centred (long before people started using that phrase about bike training), but most of all got riders THINKING about what they were doing, in order to make better decisions. As one trainee put it after a two-day course:

"I arrived with a bunch of questions I didn't know the answer to. You gave me the answers to those, but also set me a whole bunch more questions I don't know the answer to either. The difference is that now I have a much better idea of how to find the answers to those questions."

I don't challenge you to ride the way I do, you challenge me to adapt my training to what you what to achieve!

Think about it

[weeksy]

I don't challenge you to ride the way I do, you challenge me to adapt my training to what you what to achieve!

Reading this thread, it seems "just to have fun" is what most want ? I'm not knocking what you're doing by the way... but what do you feel you can 'give' ?

Another thing that troubles me slightly is that 'trainers' believe they can make someone better without actually ever having seen them ride. Whether better/safer/quicker/whatever, how can a trainer make that assumption without ever knowing or seeing the person. They may be rubbish, but quite easily could also be brilliant.

[The Spin Doctor]

I don't challenge you to ride the way I do, you challenge me to adapt my training to what you what to achieve!

Reading this thread, it seems "just to have fun" is what most want ? I'm not knocking what you're doing by the way... but what do you feel you can 'give' ?

OK, simple enough. What STOPS you having fun? If YOU can answer that question, then YOU define the way the course goes.

Another thing that troubles me slightly is that 'trainers' believe they can make someone better without actually ever having seen them ride. Whether better/safer/quicker/whatever, how can a trainer make that assumption without ever knowing or seeing the person. They may be rubbish, but quite easily could also be brilliant.

It's a fair question, and refer you straight back to what I just asked. If you CAN'T answer the question, then clearly you're not going to sort out the problem for yourself, at least not in any straightforward manner. There's always trial and error, but errors on bikes tend to be costly.

There's no cast-iron guarantee I'll be able to sort it out either, of course. But based on more than two decades of experience and a several thousand post-test training courses, I'd be reasonably confident the vast majority of riders would take SOMETHING positive away from the course.

I've even had several off-duty police ("don't tell my colleagues") riders on courses, who wanted to try something a bit different to the standard refresher course. I was dubious I could teach them anything but they arrived with open minds, and they all got something out of the sessions.

I can equally honestly say that I've had very few totally unsuccessful courses - single figures. A couple have been my fault - I simply failed to find a way to communicate what I needed to. A couple were not just scarily quick, but taking far more risks than I was prepared to take - there was no empathy between us, and when it was clear they weren't going to listen to my input, I simply called the session to a halt and refunded them. And a few have been 'badge collectors' turning up to add another training gong who simply aren't there to try anything that takes them out of their comfort zone.

[Demannu]

2 of our 3 AR crew are ex plod. 1 was an SIO trafpol and the other was surveillance.
Both are top drawer riders and offer advice and opinion on your riding abilities and dont pull their punches if they think you deserve a bollocking!
As I have said before, their rideouts are a lot brisker than UK based IAM stuff, but always 100% safe.
If most of your riding is on road, why wouldnt you want to make yourself safer/faster/smoother

I bet that makes for a fun day out

Judging by your lack of smilies, I'm guessing that's sarcasm.
They don't want us to be IAM drones, they do want us to be safe and smooth, which generally makes you quicker as you spend less time reacting to situations.
And yes, the pace they ride at is on the high side of making progress, so it is a fun day out. Not balls out with the lads pace, but plenty quick enough. 45kmh over the limit is tops usually as 50k gets your vehicle confiscated!

[Supermofo]

I think that whilst my riding isn't perfect and training may well help unlock something or other for me, the fact is I'm happy riding how I am. I don't go out and feel something is holding me back or is particularly unsafe so I don't feel the desire to do it.

I can appreciate the need/desire for training for some people but haven't had that itch myself. It's the reason I've recommended Spin or any sort of training to my born again mate as I think he needs it and would benefit from it.