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Re: Non-approved gear & costs of CE testing
Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 9:28 pm
by Horse
Hot_Air wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 9:16 pm
But I’d like to see standards improve over time. Eventually, could we get rid of the ‘A’ rating to make ‘AA’ the entry level?
In the same way that the NCap * ratings are gradually cranked up? [5* is harder to get than it usdd to be]
Hot_Air wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 9:16 pm
online transparency would only be a hassle for some overseas companies.
Legally, it ought to be awkward for them now. But it doesn't stop them.
Re: Non-approved gear & costs of CE testing
Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:01 pm
by MrLongbeard
Hot_Air wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 9:16 pm
(why not have 4A and 5A ratings, like a five star system?)
How are you going to persuade me / a.n.other biker to pay a premium over AAA? I think you'll struggle with most road riders. Racers and trackdayers may go for it, but it's a tiny market.
Hot_Air wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 9:16 pm
But I’d like to see standards improve over time. Eventually, could we get rid of the ‘A’ rating to make ‘AA’ the entry level?
Not for a very long time, that wee brexit thing kinda removed us from that process (officially
) you need the UK to develop / publish it's own standards, and there will be a metric shit ton of push back to diverging standards so soon.
Re: Non-approved gear & costs of CE testing
Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:30 am
by The Spin Doctor
Hot_Air wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 9:16 pm
Voluntary might be the way to go for higher standards. It would let the best clothing manufacturers differentiate themselves (why not have 4A and 5A ratings, like a five star system?),
But I’d like to see standards improve over time. Eventually, could we get rid of the ‘A’ rating to make ‘AA’ the entry level?
Also, I’d love the UK to make it mandatory for this info to be transparent online. British manufacturers (RST, Oxford Products, BKS, Hideout) tend to be the most transparent; online transparency would only be a hassle for some overseas companies.
The bespoke manufacturers can use the standards to enhance their reputation... the bigger companies like RST and Oxford have twigged they can use the standards to compete with the Italian giants. RST still have a shocking number of A rated fabric garments, however, often promoted in what I would say are inappropriate circumstances.
Re: Non-approved gear & costs of CE testing
Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:48 am
by The Spin Doctor
MrLongbeard wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:01 pm
How are you going to persuade me / a.n.other biker to pay a premium over AAA? I think you'll struggle with most road riders. Racers and trackdayers may go for it, but it's a tiny market.
Quite often you're not paying the premium for the AAA rating, you're paying it for the brand name, just as with most things. You can get very reasonably priced AA and a few AAA garments at less than you'll pay for A offerings from some of the 'top' names.
I had CE rated gloves made in the UK (well, OK in Pakistan probably but for a UK company) well before anyone really knew about the CE standard and they were less than half the price of an equivalent from D****** or A**********, which weren't rated until they had to be.
Re: Non-approved gear & costs of CE testing
Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:10 am
by MrLongbeard
The Spin Doctor wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:48 am
MrLongbeard wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:01 pm
How are you going to persuade me / a.n.other biker to pay a premium over AAA? I think you'll struggle with most road riders. Racers and trackdayers may go for it, but it's a tiny market.
Quite often you're not paying the premium for the AAA rating, you're paying it for the brand name, just as with most things. You can get very reasonably priced AA and a few AAA garments at less than you'll pay for A offerings from some of the 'top' names.
I had CE rated gloves made in the UK (well, OK in Pakistan probably but for a UK company) well before anyone really knew about the CE standard and they were less than half the price of an equivalent from D****** or A**********, which weren't rated until they had to be.
No doubt, and long may it continue, and to be fair it'll have to to get people off the brand name tit.
That said it's not a massive leap to think manufacturers will try to load their RRP up to or above brand names RRP on the safety ticket.
Re: Non-approved gear & costs of CE testing
Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:20 am
by Horse
Horse wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:33 pm
Hot_Air wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:11 pm
Since it’s the Italians who pushed for lower protection standards, could Brexit offer the opportunity for higher British standards?
Voluntary?
Paul Varnsverry is continually reporting advertisers to Facebook and Trading Standards for dodgy suits, to little or no avail.
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/paul-var ... 27200-WNvE
Re: Non-approved gear & costs of CE testing
Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:21 am
by Mr Moofo
It does , at best, seem ironic, at worst, false marketing
Re: Non-approved gear & costs of CE testing
Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:24 am
by The Spin Doctor
MrLongbeard wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:10 am
No doubt, and long may it continue, and to be fair it'll have to to get people off the brand name tit.
That said it's not a massive leap to think manufacturers will try to load their RRP up to or above brand names RRP on the safety ticket.
It's happened with armoured Denim jeans.
I picked up a pair a few years back for £70 - Grinfactor the company was called, small outfit in the SW IIRC. The owner was happy enough to take a chainsaw to his own leg to demonstrate the effectiveness of the liner.
Oxford's range was a bit more expensive at the time. But check out their current range - they've lifted the price into leather jeans territory. I doubt they've done anything much to improve the jeans for the CE test, but it certainly seems to have bumped the price.
Re: Non-approved gear & costs of CE testing
Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:39 am
by slowsider
Mr Moofo wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:21 am
It does , at best, seem ironic, at worst, false marketing
To protect you in the Grandstand?
Re: Non-approved gear & costs of CE testing
Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:13 am
by Mr Moofo
How would you know if clothing comes up to AA or AAA standard. Just been having a look at some stuff on Sportsbikeshop and the fail to mention that rating...?
Re: Non-approved gear & costs of CE testing
Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:30 am
by The Spin Doctor
Mr Moofo wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:13 am
How would you know if clothing comes up to AA or AAA standard. Just been having a look at some stuff on Sportsbikeshop and the fail to mention that rating...?
Hmm. Maybe they are relying on no-one looking too hard. Maybe use another supplier who does bother to tell you. CE rating must be on a tag on the garment incidentally.
You can do what I just did and go to the manufacturer's website - for example, the first one I clicked on on Sportsbikeshop was an Oxford Mondial Advanced Jacket with laminate technology, and I can't see a CE rating on their ad. But go to Oxford's website and you'll find the jacket listed.
https://www.oxfordproducts.com/motorcyc ... ech_black/
You can see it's CE 'A' rated - which really means only suitable for urban riding. So you get excellent waterproofing and poor protection.
There is still old unrated stock being sold off too, I expect.
Re: Non-approved gear & costs of CE testing
Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:36 am
by Mr Moofo
The Spin Doctor wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:30 am
Mr Moofo wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:13 am
How would you know if clothing comes up to AA or AAA standard. Just been having a look at some stuff on Sportsbikeshop and the fail to mention that rating...?
Hmm. Maybe they are relying on no-one looking too hard. Maybe use another supplier who does bother to tell you. CE rating must be on a tag on the garment incidentally.
You can do what I just did and go to the manufacturer's website - for example, the first one I clicked on on Sportsbikeshop was an Oxford Mondial Advanced Jacket with laminate technology, and I can't see a CE rating on their ad. But go to Oxford's website and you'll find the jacket listed.
https://www.oxfordproducts.com/motorcyc ... ech_black/
You can see it's CE 'A' rated - which really means only suitable for urban riding. So you get excellent waterproofing and poor protection.
There is still old unrated stock being sold off too, I expect.
I was looking at the Spada Wyatt, that RIDE rated highly. And say that it is AAA
But is does say only CE approved armour ...
https://www.sportsbikeshop.co.uk/motorc ... rod/382492
Re: Non-approved gear & costs of CE testing
Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:50 am
by The Spin Doctor
Maybe ask Sportsbikeshop why they aren't publishing CE ratings for the garment when they mention the CE armour.
I don't know if they are legally obliged to. I'll see if I can find out.
Re: Non-approved gear & costs of CE testing
Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:01 pm
by Mussels
If a shop makes more profit on lesser quality goods then they will want to hide it.
Re: Non-approved gear & costs of CE testing
Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:09 pm
by Mr Moofo
Mussels wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:01 pm
If a shop makes more profit on lesser quality goods then they will want to hide it.
I would have thought you would want to publish the fact
Re: Non-approved gear & costs of CE testing
Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:20 pm
by Hot_Air
Horse wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 9:28 pm
Hot_Air wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 9:16 pm
But I’d like to see standards improve over time. Eventually, could we get rid of the ‘A’ rating to make ‘AA’ the entry level?
In the same way that the NCap * ratings are gradually cranked up? [5* is harder to get than it usdd to be]
Precisely
Regulations can catalyse innovation. But if the standards are rarely-if-ever cranked up, there's little incentive for many companies to innovate.
Re: Non-approved gear & costs of CE testing
Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:30 pm
by Hot_Air
MrLongbeard wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:01 pm
you need the UK to develop / publish it's own standards, and there will be a metric shit ton of push back to diverging standards so soon.
Yes, I'd expect manufacturers to push back regarding the UK's regulatory divergence from the EU. But if the UK merely follows EU standards, then we're in a worse position than before Brexit: a rule-taker without any say in the rules.
Almost certainly, British companies are best placed to achieve higher PPE standards for motorcycling. So, it would give them a competitive edge – a home advantage – to have British Standards higher than CE ratings.
Also, another option would be for the UK Government to co-fund MotoCAP and make it an Anglo-Australian initiative. It would underline
our historic trade deal with the Aussies. (Incidentally, I'm looking forward to kangaroo leathers coming down in price now we've got a trade deal with Oz.)
Re: Non-approved gear & costs of CE testing
Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:38 pm
by Horse
Hot_Air wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:30 pmwe're in a worse position than before Brexit: a rule-taker without any say in the rules.
Wrong thread, but yes
Ironically, as I posted in the AV thread recently, the UK's been involved in creating the next set of EU vehicle Regs
Re: Non-approved gear & costs of CE testing
Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 6:11 pm
by MrLongbeard
Hot_Air wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:30 pm
MrLongbeard wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:01 pm
you need the UK to develop / publish it's own standards, and there will be a metric shit ton of push back to diverging standards so soon.
Yes, I'd expect manufacturers to push back regarding the UK's regulatory divergence from the EU. But if the UK merely follows EU standards, then we're in a worse position than before Brexit: a rule-taker without any say in the rules.
Almost certainly, British companies are best placed to achieve higher PPE standards for motorcycling. So, it would give them a competitive edge – a home advantage – to have British Standards higher than CE ratings.
Also, another option would be for the UK Government to co-fund MotoCAP and make it an Anglo-Australian initiative. It would underline
our historic trade deal with the Aussies. (Incidentally, I'm looking forward to kangaroo leathers coming down in price now we've got a trade deal with Oz.)
Sorry, you've misunderstood me, there would be massive reluctance from government and then down at divergence so soon.
And it's not just the standards that need writing, it's a whole new regulation, the very legal framework itself needs writing, and writing in such a way so as to dovetail with existing EU legislation so we can sell to them and they can sell to us with minimal friction.
I don't think there's the appetite or indeed the market for it, eg Shoei & Arai are probably hold the market share in helmets regardless of the fact AGV and similar produce cheaper helmets that score higher in Sharp testing.
Re: Non-approved gear & costs of CE testing
Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:14 pm
by Hot_Air
I guess it’s too much to hope for the UK to back MotoCAP.
MrLongbeard wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 6:11 pm
there would be massive reluctance from government and then down at divergence so soon.
While I don’t want this thread to degenerate into a Brexit debate, I can’t help wondering why we bothered if Britain* continues to follow rules and regulations set by the EU. If the British Standard for motorcycle PPE is merely EN 17092, we’ve become British sheep following a European shepherd.
* Not all the UK can diverge from EU regulations for products because Northern Ireland must continue to follow European regs.
