revtothelimit - motorbike forum

"Pull yourself together". Bollocks.

One of the many things that depression takes away from you is tenacity.

Bootstrapping isn't going to work when you don't want to get out of bed in the morning.




It's a pity Docca got pissed off with all the cunts telling him he was a quack, and took his ball home..

Potter wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:13 am Took me a while to find it, but have you got half an hour (ish) spare? You can skip the intro.
https://www.ted.com/talks/robert_sapols ... anguage=fa

Success, reward, winning, belief, challenge, etc, that's the gist of it.

That was interesting! Thank you x

moth wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 12:53 pm "Pull yourself together". Bollocks.

One of the many things that depression takes away from you is tenacity.

Bootstrapping isn't going to work when you don't want to get out of bed in the morning.


It's a pity Docca got pissed off with all the cunts telling him he was a quack, and took his ball home..

I know that the "pull yourself together" things doesn't work specifically. It totally needs more than that.



A couple of things changed on Thursday and Friday and my brain is a happier place at the moment. I'm still going to see the MT early next week, but feeling more able to deal with things and making the choices to help me get back to being me!

Potter wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:57 pm
You didn't watch the video did you?

No I didn't, because your link took me to

Potter wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:57 pmSo you have no idea of the tiny little spark of thought about motivation, psychology and neurochemistry in primates that Sapolsky was explaining. You should try his book "Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers" you might learn something instead of just being the shouty man at the back.

Zebras aren't primates, but I'm supposing his premise is about stress. Does he go down the route of "the more self-awareness an animal has = the more stress it suffers"?

Potter wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:57 pmBeating depression has little to do with "pulling yourself together". It's about understanding it.

Many people with depression are uniquely unequipped to 'understand' it, in the same way that people with cancer aren't able to perform their own resections. They aren't psychologists, or in Saplosky's case neuroscientists. Does he have a medical degree BTW?

Potter wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:57 pmAnyway, this about Noggin, not who thinks they're better at human/primate psychology. Robert Sapolsky talks a lot of sense on the subject, he's one man but he's going to be a damn sight better than listening to a moany old man, an electrician or a nurse on RTTL.

The ad hominem doesn't do you any credit, or reinforce your argument. Now go and read Oliver Sacks. He was a neuroscientist with a medical degree who actually practiced. You could start with 'The Man Who Mistook His Wife For a Hat'

To be fair, I've seen a couple of Sapolskys vids and they're genuinely very good as far as I can work out.
Some interesting parallels between baboon populations and the civil service on one of them.

Potter wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 3:08 am What's going on inside your body is pretty complicated, it's not a case of just pulling yourself together, you can't just turn the chemical tap on, but my belief is that if you sort-of know what's going on then you can start that long hill climb towards training the bits in your brain to re-engage.

If your brain actually functions as it should, even if it currently isn't, then you can kickstart it back into production and you can cure yourself.
If it doesn't, then you need medication to introduce what your brain cannot make. I think sometimes the medication gives you hope and hope is enough to start the recovery process in your head.

*Caveat - I'm an electrician, so I could be talking utter bollocks. Although I can also make lights come on and I don't know exactly how electrons work inside the cables either.

That bit I've highlighted is what this thread has helped me with. Because I learnt to manage things and haven't considered myself actually depressed for probably 15+ years, the fact that I couldn't sort things this time helped push me down a spiral and made me worse and worse - in a stupidly short time as well

Even just reading the posts on here, and the PMs I've had, has really boosted me. Made me think I can "kickstart it" - which has made me feel a million times better than I did when I wrote the OP

I'm not dismissing medication. I can see that it might help as a temporary thing. But now I have more confidence and positivity to go and sit down with the doctor and see if depression meds are the best way to go or hormone stuff, or, continue to work on myself whilst knowing the doctor is there to help if I start spiralling again

And the doctor seems pretty good to talk to (hadn't expected that - older French men don't have a good rep for feelings/emotions/women stuff); he has a lot of understanding about my shoulder and the nerve damage and the fact that recovery/rehab seems to have stopped/gone back a bit he's seen and noted, but not made a big thing of. So I'm feeling more comfortable to go and talk to him because I think he will be helpful - not dismissive/impatient/unsympathetic, which is what I had expected from previous interactions with doctors about mental stuff!!

TBF, the absolutely biggest boost has been knowing that someone is going to take on the Monster and I could well have a bike for the summer; the next is that I have now applied for an Irish passport (huge release of business stress when that arrives, will take a few months, but still, I know it's on the way!).


The sun is out today and a small group of us are meeting for Sunday Lunch Club, so the social thing will help too


Potter - whilst you write that you could be talking utter bollocks, your brian is writing stuff that seriously does help my brian. So thank you in bucket loads (if you were closer I'd post baked goods, but I don't think they'd survive the trip and the temperatures out there!!)


Appreciate all the comments - you've all helped me a lot, especially in my view of meds. Like I said, I might not go that route but at least I'm now willing to talk to the doctor about it!

xxx (no girlie smilies, so just bog standard xxx's!!)

moth wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 12:53 pm It's a pity Docca got pissed off with all the cunts telling him he was a quack, and took his ball home..

Bugger, I suppose I'd best forget about that bottle of bourbon then

Just skimmed this, so apologies. I did like the quack comment though

Caveat: it’s been a while since I’ve treated patients so this might be a bit rusty:

- contrary to a suggestion in this thread, if you are prescribed an antidepressant and you start taking it, don’t sack it off after a week unless you are experiencing profoundly uncomfortable side effects ( and even then consult your medic). Typically, you’re looking at 3 to 4 weeks for these medicines to start making any difference, and that is more like 12 weeks for most people.

-mirtazepine is primarily an antidepressant and it’s sedating, at least until you tolerate it. It’s why you should take it at night to behind with, before bed. I’ve not seen any good results on it acting as a drug for anxiety, although I’m sure the sedating part helps ( and I know people who do prescribe it for these reasons).

- drugs won’t cure circumstance If your life isn’t where you’d like it to be.

-motivational Pom-poms won’t cure circumstance and if you’re depressed, it’s more than likely you’ll neither have the clarity of thinking or energy to get inspired. Park this for now though, because Iccies point about goals is right ( you just need to time them).

- recommendation would be to try psychotherapy and low dose anti-depressant. Or just the former first if you are up to it. Work through a process called ‘formulation’ with the therapist and this will map out where you are, your life and thinking and perhaps shine a light as to why your feel the way you do ( I say perhaps, I mean it will- but that’s in English. God knows what a French for CBT is )

- lean in to the depression/ feeling down. Don’t be afraid of it, but try and recognise it for what it is. This will include reflecting on your life around you. If, as I’ve skimmed from this thread, you’re not as active as you’d like and you’re not getting cocked as often as you’d hoped/settled down/whatever - what can be done about that? If nothing, get a cat.

- build routine and exercise into every single day.

-only use your bedroom for sleeping or screwing. Make sure you’re up and active in the morning.

The very worst case I ever worked with was a dad who worked as a window cleaner. Lived on an estate. No money. Not prepared to try and stretch for a career change. Was miserable about his circumstances. Thought tablets would fix that. They never will. There is more detail to the above than what I’ve typed btw.

Anyway, back into another meeting.

Docca wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:29 am Just skimmed this, so apologies. I did like the quack comment though

Thank you. I have read this (twice!). But I'll respond later as have to see people soon and sitting reading and trying to respond made me cry!! (Don't think that it's in a bad way!!)

Really really appreciate your reply. Thank you for taking the time

xx

CTT apparently

Ok, bit more 'up to it' now!

Docca wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:29 am Just skimmed this, so apologies. I did like the quack comment though

Caveat: it’s been a while since I’ve treated patients so this might be a bit rusty:

- contrary to a suggestion in this thread, if you are prescribed an antidepressant and you start taking it, don’t sack it off after a week unless you are experiencing profoundly uncomfortable side effects ( and even then consult your medic). Typically, you’re looking at 3 to 4 weeks for these medicines to start making any difference, and that is more like 12 weeks for most people.

Not so keen on that long taking them, but will go with what the doctor says if we go that route. Bit like antibiotics, don't quit half way?!!

Docca wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:29 am -mirtazepine is primarily an antidepressant and it’s sedating, at least until you tolerate it. It’s why you should take it at night to behind with, before bed. I’ve not seen any good results on it acting as a drug for anxiety, although I’m sure the sedating part helps ( and I know people who do prescribe it for these reasons).

Not sure of the difference between depression and anxiety - I don't think I have the second but do feel pretty miserable and down, so suspect it's more like depression than anxiety. Probably

Docca wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:29 am - drugs won’t cure circumstance If your life isn’t where you’d like it to be.

Things have been shitty but I'm not unhappy with life overall. I live in an amazing place, can ski (not this year), amazing roads for biking (when I get back to it). Yes, the business has suffered for various reasons but I'm positive about the future for it. Life should be good - apart from lockdown/restrictions/shoulder etc. So I don't need the drugs to change that

Docca wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:29 am -motivational Pom-poms won’t cure circumstance and if you’re depressed, it’s more than likely you’ll neither have the clarity of thinking or energy to get inspired. Park this for now though, because Iccies point about goals is right ( you just need to time them).

- recommendation would be to try psychotherapy and low dose anti-depressant. Or just the former first if you are up to it. Work through a process called ‘formulation’ with the therapist and this will map out where you are, your life and thinking and perhaps shine a light as to why your feel the way you do ( I say perhaps, I mean it will- but that’s in English. God knows what a French for CBT is )

I would prefer to see a psychologist than to take drugs to be honest; the one I saw in rehab was really good and I think (I know!) she helped me a LOT whilst I was there. We didn't address the issue of depression because I didn't feel depressed there. Need to try and find a psychologist that speaks English near enough to me to be able to go and see them

I'm struggling with energy but I have been able to get my head around things better this week. My friend up here has helped a lot, but he's going back to the UK tomorrow

Docca wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:29 am - lean in to the depression/ feeling down. Don’t be afraid of it, but try and recognise it for what it is. This will include reflecting on your life around you. If, as I’ve skimmed from this thread, you’re not as active as you’d like and you’re not getting cocked as often as you’d hoped/settled down/whatever - what can be done about that? If nothing, get a cat.

This thread and talking to my friend up here has really helped me 'lean into it'. I was terrified that I was losing my mind when I started the thread but now I am much more balanced about it. Still get teary more than I'd like, but I can deal with that better now. Probably better to cry than to try not to?
I do struggle with active as the rehab has plateau'd and I'm getting pain again. But that's partly because I'm having to drive to the valley 3-4 times a week for treatment and the driving is not comfortable. I'd love a cat - would have to move first though!! LOL

But the physio is helping with the pain/movement and a friend is helping with the physio exercises just by texting to see if I'm doing them when she's doing her yoga! So I'm getting a bit of support that way

Docca wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:29 am - build routine and exercise into every single day.

-only use your bedroom for sleeping or screwing. Make sure you’re up and active in the morning.

One thing I have been very determined about is that I get up, showered and dressed every morning. I've felt that was important. But yes, I do now need to build in extra/actual exercise, not just physio stuff at home. Hopefully the weather will get better soon so going walking will be nicer than walking in sleet!

Docca wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:29 am The very worst case I ever worked with was a dad who worked as a window cleaner. Lived on an estate. No money. Not prepared to try and stretch for a career change. Was miserable about his circumstances. Thought tablets would fix that. They never will. There is more detail to the above than what I’ve typed btw.

Anyway, back into another meeting.

I definitely want to feel better. I don't see drugs as a fix, but am willing to try them to help me if the GP thinks that's the way. I would prefer to work out another way though if we can do that

From reading this and other replies, I do need to do more activity. It's too easy to do the physio stuff at home and not go outside

I do really appreciate your reply. It's made me think about and process stuff a bit more. Added to some of the other things I've taken from the responses before. So, thank you again, lots x

I'd echo a lot of what's been said about the getting up early, exercise, trying to getting in the right mental head space etc etc. And I'm not saying you're not doing any / all of that now.

SSRIs can help people get over the hump and get things on a much better trajectory. As Docca says they take their time to start working. And they can make things worse before they make them better. They are probably a minimum six month thing if you're going to get much benefit from them. But they are an option worth considering, along with all the lifestyle stuff too. There is a lot of stigma and self pressure not to take them but that can be unhelpful.

Good luck whatever you decide - and however those decisions evolve.


ps. on an unrelated note the new hair looks good, really funky and cool!

This is an interesting read. Cognitive behavioural therapy vs drugs and good, validated results on seratonin increase higher through therapy

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41398-021-01376-w

Docca wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 12:38 am This is an interesting read. Cognitive behavioural therapy vs drugs and good, validated results on seratonin increase higher through therapy

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41398-021-01376-w

I think I'll need to work through that a couple of times to understand it better!! But thank you for posting. I'll read it again in a morning for better comprehension

Asian Boss wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:30 pm I'd echo a lot of what's been said about the getting up early, exercise, trying to getting in the right mental head space etc etc. And I'm not saying you're not doing any / all of that now.

SSRIs can help people get over the hump and get things on a much better trajectory. As Docca says they take their time to start working. And they can make things worse before they make them better. They are probably a minimum six month thing if you're going to get much benefit from them. But they are an option worth considering, along with all the lifestyle stuff too. There is a lot of stigma and self pressure not to take them but that can be unhelpful.

Good luck whatever you decide - and however those decisions evolve.


ps. on an unrelated note the new hair looks good, really funky and cool!

Thank you for the hair comment and the info. I'm not doing enough getting out/exercise. Weather is pants and I am not keen on walking! (Happy to do a sport, but just walking up the road - mountains are too wet/dangerous at the mo - does nothing for me!)

BUT, I have been getting up and showered/dressed etc in good time every day. So I do need to make more effort to do the rest as I'm slowly dragging myself back up and getting out will help with everything xx

I went to see the GP today. I do feel a bit better, still very quick to tears but no longer feel like I'm in quicksand.

I said I'm not keen on trying drugs as they will take a few weeks to kick in and there are side effects. His first comment was "we need to be sure you don't NEED them. If you have any thoughts of suicide, then we need to consider finding a medication that you can work with". After I'd talked to him and explained that even if I felt suicidal, I wouldn't ever do it because I've known too many people that have and I just wouldn't put friends and family through that. I did tell him that if I ever felt on that knife edge, I would go to see him and get help

We discussed the hormone issue but he feels that I'm less likely to suffer from a lack of hormone (particularly progesteron - at least, the one that isn't estrogen) because I'm 'not skinny'! He did have a biological reason for that, I can't remember it. He mentioned osteoporosis and I said there was a family history of that (but both women ate badly - supposedly like birds, but lots of snacking with no conciousness of the foods they should have eaten). So, it's just something to keep in mind for now

I asked about seeing a psychologist (the one in the rehab centre helped a lot) but he isn't sure it would help at the moment and I'd have to go private


However. I've got my head around the prolonged plateau of shoulder recovery - the fact that wasn't getting better was a HUGE issue. Now I think I've sussed part of the issue I'm more positive. There's a probability/possibility I will have a bike to learn ride again soon (even if just up here around the villages). The cafes/bars can open the terraces soon so, being in the valley for physio means I can meet up with friends for a coffee sometimes.

So, I'm going to keep working through things but knowing I have his support to try and find meds if needed and possibly test for hormone levels too


One thing that has really helped is that he and one of the other GPs are so understanding. Especially today's guy that I've seen the last couple of times. For an old French GP he's a lot more understanding than I expected!!


The biggest help has come from you guys - reading experiences and advice has helped me find some balance. Despite losing my talk-to-friend up here for a few months, I feel more balanced and better able to deal with things (even though I still cry too often!! LOL)

Thank you xxx