revtothelimit - motorbike forum

Re relaxed; it's actually very counterproductive - to have a death grip on the handlebars.

Watch this. Seriously, watch it. Nominally about rake and trail, elements of motorcycle chassis design. But watch his hands as he explains...

The only time I consciously use counter steering is when changing my line in a corner and going from one corner into another. Am I right that it's assumed most riders do it regardless or whether they are aware of it? It certainly helps them once they know it's there and can learn to use it.

I have an interest in why it works and enjoy asking the question, though I don't need to know in order to use it.

Trinity765 wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 8:22 pmAm I right that it's assumed most riders do it regardless or whether they are aware of it?

Most? Probably all.

Ever heard the description 'lean into the corner'? Try leaning your upper body, what you are probably going to do is move your shoulders to the side you want to go to. So what that shoulder movement will - accidentally - achieve is to either / both press forward on the inside bar or pull back on the outside bar.

You can prove this to yourself: sit in a chair, facing a table or desk. Gently rest your palms at shoulder width on the edge of the table. Move your shoulders slowly from side to side, be aware and feel for the pressure change in your palms.

Trinity765 wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 8:22 pm It certainly helps them once they know it's there and can learn to use it.

You used the word 'awareness'.

Most of the time, possibly for their entire riding career, our accidental steer rider may never need to consciously steer.

But if they do need to - a scary tightening radius turn, swerving around an obstacle - then they need to know how to. That's when the awareness, understanding, and practice pay off. In those situations the rider won't have time to think 'so what did H post ... ?' they need to know then, they need to do then.

Trinity765 wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 8:22 pm I have an interest in why it works and enjoy asking the question, though I don't need to know in order to use it.

Challenge yourself. On a quiet straight stretch of road, practice swerving around marks or inspection covers. In bends, practice slight changes of line.

There's not much you can do with a bike: accelerate, brake, change gear (if not an auto), use the switches. And steer. Whether for cornering, roundabouts, avoiding obstacles, just staying between the hedges, it's worth knowing and practicing.

Cousin Jack wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 7:26 pm
*IIRC (I haven't tried this for almost 60 years) the steering flops the opposite way to your lean, and you then have to reverse your lean off so it continues to track around the bend. Sort of countersteering by weight shift.

Is still the right answer.

Leaning IN to the bend won't get the bike going where the rider expects it.

I first heard of countersteering on VD, about 35 years after passed my bike test and after successfully (ie not crashing) coming back to biking.

You don't need to know for easy biking (you do it unconsciously), but I after learning (and practicing with) countersteering I was a hell of a lot safer, and a lot less likely to make a hole in the hedge if the bend was longer than I realised.

Riders who don't consciously counter steer tend to be imprecise with their cornering lines as it is influenced by the road camber and speed, they tend to vaguely lean and hope. My main concern with riders not consciously counter steering and practicing it is when that car pull out of a side street into your path and stops ( and one will) if you have not trained yourself to counter steer, then you are likely to steer the bars away from the vehicle and the bike is going to go towards it.

Horse wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 7:32 pm Re relaxed; it's actually very counterproductive - to have a death grip on the handlebars.

Watch this. Seriously, watch it. Nominally about rake and trail, elements of motorcycle chassis design. But watch his hands as he explains...

That video reminds me.... I was pillion one day in Scotland with a guy on a Tiger 850 Sport. As we set off down Applecross I pointed out that his helmet wasn't done up, expecting him to stop, do it up, carry on. He didn't; without stopping he took both his gloves off, did his helmet up and put them back on - I'm screaming in my head "Corner! We're not going to make it" but we did - no hands. He then turned his engine off and we started coasting down. We silently whooshed past a bunch of GS riders who were making it look like hard work in comparison.

Horse wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 8:48 pm
Challenge yourself. On a quiet straight stretch of road, practice swerving around marks or inspection covers. In bends, practice slight changes of line.

I often play with counter steering. One handed too as you can equally pull the bar as push the bar. As before though, when riding the in the nationals I don't really think about it unless I need it and the smaller you are, the bigger the bike is and the faster you are going, the more you need it.

Trinity765 wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:04 am

Horse wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 8:48 pm
Challenge yourself. On a quiet straight stretch of road, practice swerving around marks or inspection covers. In bends, practice slight changes of line.

I often play with counter steering. One handed too as you can equally pull the bar as push the bar. As before though, when riding the in the nationals I don't really think about it unless I need it and the smaller you are, the bigger the bike is and the faster you are going, the more you need it.

My final bike was an ex-DSA (as was then) examiner's R850RT. I bought it from Witham SV (as seen on various TV programmes, they deal with government surplus such as tanks, Landies, etc,).

They had about 30 RTs and Pans, I chose one, haggled, then took it along the access road. Hands off it veered slightly to the right. Due to the massive fire extinguisher in the pannier!

Trinity765 wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:04 am the smaller you are, the bigger the bike is and the faster you are going, the more you need it.

Yorick said he never needed to, so are you suggesting he's very big, very slow, or both?

Horse wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:49 am

Trinity765 wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:04 am the smaller you are, the bigger the bike is and the faster you are going, the more you need it.

Yorick said he never needed to, so are you suggesting he's very big, very slow, or both?

I'm not saying anything That's interesting though. Why am doing it then?

Trinity765 wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:55 am

Horse wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:49 am

Trinity765 wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:04 am the smaller you are, the bigger the bike is and the faster you are going, the more you need it.

Yorick said he never needed to, so are you suggesting he's very big, very slow, or both?

I'm not saying anything That's interesting though. Why am doing it then?

Didn't think you were

It's probably that Yorick is, and always was, so relaxed about hurtling around tracks at ridiculous speeds (speaking here as someone who scares too easily) that he subconsciously used the appropriate amount of upper body movement (as described earlier). Similar to your helmet strap rider and Bret Tkakks in the video, and they may well be relatively rare amongst riders.

Horse wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:19 am

Trinity765 wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:55 am

Horse wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:49 am

Yorick said he never needed to, so are you suggesting he's very big, very slow, or both?

I'm not saying anything That's interesting though. Why am doing it then?

Didn't think you were

It's probably that Yorick is, and always was, so relaxed about hurtling around tracks at ridiculous speeds (speaking here as someone who scares too easily) that he subconsciously used the appropriate amount of upper body movement (as described earlier). Similar to your helmet strap rider and Bret Tkakks in the video, and they may well be relatively rare amongst riders.

Approaching a bend at any speed without at least one hand on the bars is the stuff my nightmares are made of, so I won't be trying it.

I meant upper body movement as in 'shoulders moving arms applying pressure to the bars'. Not hands off! Apologies for confusion.

Horse wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:31 am I meant upper body movement as in 'shoulders moving arms applying pressure to the bars'. Not hands off! Apologies for confusion.

I use a lot of upper body movement and was called "a bit of a pendulum" once for doing so It works. I never use my weight on the pegs though (unless I'm going over bumps) so I don't know if it helps - I tend to either relax my legs or grip the tank.

Trinity765 wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 9:31 am

Horse wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:31 am I meant upper body movement as in 'shoulders moving arms applying pressure to the bars'. Not hands off! Apologies for confusion.

I use a lot of upper body movement and was called "a bit of a pendulum" once for doing so It works. I never use my weight on the pegs though (unless I'm going over bumps) so I don't know if it helps - I tend to either relax my legs or grip the tank.

Nothing wrong with UBM, it even has a name: 'kiss the mirror'.

Pegs and peg weighting. Interesting this. How can you (anyone) change weighting on the pegs if they're still sat on the seat? Can the 'weighting' be done in isolation? It is going to require either a push against something or have the proverbial opposite reaction.

Weight transfer along with upper body movement? All part of one action.

Gripping the tank? Helps with a relaxed / loose upper body.

Horse wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 9:58 am
Pegs and peg weighting. Interesting this. How can you (anyone) change weighting on the pegs if they're still sat on the seat? Can the 'weighting' be done in isolation? It is going to require either a push against something or have the proverbial opposite reaction.

Same as balancing on a seesaw. If you shift weight over one side the seesaw tips. The pegs are effectively a seesaw balanced over the wheels. If you climb onto a bike that's on the centre stand by standing on one peg there's a risk of tipping the bike over.

But sat astride the bike, something has to move to use peg weighting. And it's the upper body.

I went back to my source - the IAM, Full Control document and what I was thinking of is the "Anchored Push". Now I've re-read it, it's not really about weight on the pegs. It suggests anchoring yourself (consciously feeling) the outside peg while pushing on the opposite bar. I tried it for five minutes once, gave up and rode how I normally ride.

Trinity765 wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 6:06 am I went back to my source - the IAM, Full Control document and what I was thinking of is the "Anchored Push". Now I've re-read it, it's not really about weight on the pegs. It suggests anchoring yourself (consciously feeling) the outside peg while pushing on the opposite bar. I tried it for five minutes once, gave up and rode how I normally ride.

Keith Code called it 'Power Steering'


Now, consider how pushing the inside bar while pressing down on the outside footrest works with the idea of it's possible to steer by 'weighting the footrests'?

Then add in hanging off to one side as a cornering style. How is that achieved?

A rough split of methods might be:

As part of a smooth movement for 'kiss the mirror' style, combining upper body movement and pressing the bar, press on the outside footrest.

For hanging off, to slide your backside sideways, you probably need to, at that moment, press down on both rests to lift your weight. I'm not a reliable source for this sort of riding. However, my understanding is that there needs to be slight separation in time between hanging off, then steering in.

If riding no hands, then you can only move your upper body or, if you raise your weight, press on a footrest.

These are things to consciously try, in appropriate circumstances, making sure that you identify what action actually causes the reaction.

That guy riding no handed. He must be leaning a tad to get bike to turn. To turn, does the bike auto CS momentarily and then auto correct to allow the bike to find it's balance and complete the turn. ??