CBT Booked

[Horse]

I have lost count of the times I've been told "you can only get a bike to turn via counter-steering"..

I think he comments that the bars are based used for accurate and immediate steering.

Which is what I've been saying.

Not how your post read

[The Spin Doctor]

Not how your post read

?

I've read my post again and all it says is that I've been saying you can steer a bike hands-off for years. I've even demo'd it on a bike I'd never ridden before.

As it happens, that was about twelve years ago and was even captured on video at the time, though I have no idea where that went.

But yes, I've also never said anything other than whilst you can steer hands off, it's slow and inaccurate. If you want quick, precise steering it has to be counter-steering.

[Bigyin]

Whilst i understand and respect your combined years of skill and advanced training lets not overcomplicate things for a novice...... this thread is for Tigs and his CBT and any help he can get from the knowledge at a basic level without worrying about counter steering and peg weighting as neither is taught at the level he is looking to be at

<ducks>

[Tigs]

I'm just sitting in a corner - quietly visualising myself changing gear - and doing figure of 8's .. and wondering how I can get the back break to work..

I think i'm slowly driving myself insane..

[Horse]

the knowledge at a basic level without worrying about counter steering

It's not in the syllabus, true.

There are very few things you can do on a bike:
Accelerate
Change gear
Brake
Stop
Twiddle switches to make assorted beeps and flashes.

And, unless you only want to go in a straightish line, steer.

Odd - actually it's bizarre- that DVSA don't consider it worth inclusion.

It's really simple and, for many car drivers especially, essential to know:

To initiate a turn, you press forward on the handlebar that side - press left = go left
The quicker you press, the quicker the bike leans
The longer you hold the pressure for, the further the bike leans

[Horse]

I think i'm slowly driving myself insane..

If you get the hang of doing it slowly, doing it faster will be easier

[Dodgy69]

For figure 8 and cbt stuff I would imagine its understanding clutch, revs, rear brake. Dont stall and slip clutch at will. I dropped my bike on its side on pre test doing U turn without slipping clutch. Stalled.

[Hot_Air]

this thread is for Tigs and his CBT and any help he can get from the knowledge at a basic level without worrying about counter steering and peg weighting as neither is taught at the level he is looking to be at

I agree. Though I'm curious why counter-steering isn't taught. Is it omitted from the CBT, but taught during DAS?

Incidentally, I've only found that weighting the legs made a significant difference on track. At regular road speeds, I haven't found much need for it. Am I the only one?

[iansoady]

Many many years ago I decided that it would be a good idea to teach my wife to ride the BSA C15 I had got in a swap for some old junk. We duly went off to the local trading estate, I started the bike and she got astride while I explained the controls - throttle, clutch, brakes - and she successfully got under way while I trotted alongside shouting encouragement.

What I hadn't realised was that she'd never even ridden a pushbike so had no idea of how to turn. So she continued on a straight path, having forgotten what I said about brakes, until she gently collided with a brick wall and tumbled to the ground. Fortunately the C15 was undamaged.

For some reason she never wanted to repeat the exercise and it wasn't till years later my dad taught her to ride a pushbike. She's never really trusted me to help her learn anything since.

[Horse]

I agree. Though I'm curious why counter-steering isn't taught. Is it omitted from the CBT, but taught during DAS?

DVSA (and, previously, DSA) have been adamantly against it being taught, to the extent of saying in one of their books that instructors will only teach it if they feel the trainee is up to it.

It's a basic control technique, it should be taught. When I taught the (US) MSF courses, it was taught to learners. The MSF 'MRC' is basically CBT and DAS combined. They teach counter-steering for cornering and swerving (and counter-weighting for tight turns).

In 2009, just before Mod 1 was introduced, there was a survey of UK instructors. Some answered that:

5.3 Safety Concerns
Just under half of instructors say that there are no skills which they will not teach because of safety
concerns. The main concerns from the remainder are counter-steering ...
https://trl.co.uk/sites/default/files/PPR306.pdf

If I had to guess, from the instructors I knew at that time, about a third didn't have a clue about steering and another third probably knew a bit but not really enough to teach it well.

But anyway, it's not as if riders ever crash on bends, is it? :|

[Bigyin]

the knowledge at a basic level without worrying about counter steering

It's not in the syllabus, true.

If its not in the syllabus then it isnt taught as an ATB would then be liable if a student tried a technique taught by an instructor and fucked it up. Same reason as we dont teach students to filter which is perfectly legal but carries an element of risk.

Ironically i had a student yesterday where counter steering would have been a huge help as he could turn happily on the pad at 1st gear speeds but his previous riding experience was a quad and recently a Cam Am 3 wheeler with an auto gearbox. On the road ride, got to the first 90 degree right hander and almost went straight on as he would not lean the bike at all and actually tried to put his body weight left while turning the bars right.

Managed to fix this by finding a large open area nearby and getting him to lean the bike right and left till it became more natural then carried on. If i could have shown counter steering it would have sped things up greatly but a novice getting it wrong can have legal consequences for the instructor and ATB

The side discussion you and Spin were having was about things Tigs doesnt need to know now to get through his CBT but could apply later in his riding so i thought the KISS* approach will benefit him at the moment



*Keep It Simple Stupid

[Horse]

the knowledge at a basic level without worrying about counter steering

It's not in the syllabus, true.

If its not in the syllabus then it isnt taught as an ATB would then be liable if a student tried a technique taught by an instructor and fucked it up. Same reason as we dont teach students to filter which is perfectly legal but carries an element of risk.

Download the report I linked. IIRC 1/3 claimed they taught c-s on CBT and 2/3 for DAS.

[Horse]

I agree. Though I'm curious why counter-steering isn't taught. Is it omitted from the CBT, but taught during DAS?

DVSA (and, previously, DSA) have been adamantly against it being taught, to the extent of saying in one of their books that instructors will only teach it if they feel the trainee is up to it.

I was bored. So I found the book

"It is a technique and skill that should only be taught by professional motorcycle instructors. DSA recommends that the technique should only be introduced at a stage of your training and development that the instructor deems safe and appropriate."


The Official DSA GUIDE to RIDING the essential skills
2008 edition

[Bigyin]

I was bored. So I found the book

"It is a technique and skill that should only be taught by professional motorcycle instructors. DSA recommends that the technique should only be introduced at a stage of your training and development that the instructor deems safe and appropriate."


The Official DSA GUIDE to RIDING the essential skills
2008 edition

The 2016 edition of the same book (pages 180 -181)has different wording and is more vague than 2008 in that it explains the technique but merely has a highlighted note which says

"Remember. Its important to get advice from a motorcycle trainer to help you to learn to counter steer safely"

It seems they are more relaxed about it than in 2008

I have also just been through the DVSA Official Guide to Learning to Ride which explains and covers CBT, Theory, Mod 1 and Mod 2 syllabus and tests (for those who dont know) and there is no mention of counter steering in the entire book

[Horse]

The 2016 edition of the same book (pages 180 -181)has different wording and is more vague than 2008 in that it explains the technique but merely has a highlighted note which says

"Remember. Its important to get advice from a motorcycle trainer to help you to learn to counter steer safely"

It seems they are more relaxed about it than in 2008

I have also just been through the DVSA Official Guide to Learning to Ride which explains and covers CBT, Theory, Mod 1 and Mod 2 syllabus and tests (for those who dont know) and there is no mention of counter steering in the entire book

They did host a seminar on it. Oddly, I didn't get an invite

It beggers belief, really, given that Mod 1 includes a corner and a swerve!

They surpased themselves with the post-test DVD. The 'solution' for running wide in a corner was "go more slowly next time".

[Bigyin]

They did host a seminar on it. Oddly, I didn't get an invite

It beggers belief, really, given that Mod 1 includes a corner and a swerve!

They surpased themselves with the post-test DVD. The 'solution' for running wide in a corner was "go more slowly next time".

Your reference to the 2008 book was what got me thinking so hence i went looking at my more up to date books to see if there was any mention and first place i looked as cornering for CBT which has no mention of it, then the avoidance for Mod 1....As you say it beggars belief its not there for the avoidance as thats exactly what is needed but its not taught or mentioned



below is the pages relating to Counter steering

[Horse]

They did host a seminar on it. Oddly, I didn't get an invite

It beggers belief, really, given that Mod 1 includes a corner and a swerve!

They surpased themselves with the post-test DVD. The 'solution' for running wide in a corner was "go more slowly next time".

Your reference to the 2008 book was what got me thinking so hence i went looking at my more up to date books to see if there was any mention and first place i looked as cornering for CBT which has no mention of it, then the avoidance for Mod 1....As you say it beggars belief its not there for the avoidance as thats exactly what is needed but its not taught or mentioned

It's even worse. After Mod 1 was introduced - and that was a farce too - there were some nasty mid-test crashes, including on the 'avoidance' exercise (ie swerve and brake).

So, obviously, they carried out extensive investigations to determine what needed to be changed to prevent it happening again.

House of Commons Transport Committee
The new European motorcycle test
Sixth Report of Session 2009–10
Report, together with formal minutes, oral and written evidence
Ordered by the House of Commons to be printed 10 March 2010

13. Concerns about the safety of the ‘swerve and brake’ manoeuvre in the off-road Module 1 test ... were particularly prevalent in the evidence received by the Committee.

So it's a big enough problem that the HoC Transport Committee are involved.

What do DSA say?

16. The DfT and the DSA admitted that some incidents had occurred during Module 1 “swerve to avoid” tests. In the Department’s view, incidents occurred not because the test itself is unreasonably dangerous, but because some candidates are inadequately prepared for the test. It argued that the skills tested by the swerve test are critical in helping them to avoid accidents in real life:

17. The DSA also argued that the level of familiarity of motorcycle trainers with the new test arrangements and the off-road track is vital in enabling them to prepare their students adequately for the test. The DSA offered a wide variety of guidance and a free DVD which demonstrated and explained the test. Since December 2008, trainers have had the opportunity to try out the test for themselves, free of charge. However, very few trainers have chosen to take advantage of these opportunities

So:
1. Critical skills
2. Blame the trainers . . .

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/c ... 42/442.pdf

[Hot_Air]

Which muppets were responsible for excluding counter-steering from the syllabus for Module 1? It’s not rocket science! Counter-steering is largely how you get a bike to corner - at least it gets a mention in the book Bigyin showed.

As for not teaching filtering (and overtaking for that matter), it leaves riders with only one way to learn these crucial skills: making it up as you go along.* What could possibly go wrong?

* Unless they do training with Spin, Rapid Training, BikeSafe, etc.

[Horse]

Which muppets were responsible for excluding counter-steering from the syllabus?

My old Chief Instructor went on the very first session that DSA ran to accredit instructors for CBT. Not long after starting the course, someone asked "Errr . . . shouldn't 'gear changing' be in the syllabus?"

The long version is: it's all based, one way or another, on police training from way back. Look through versions of Roadcraft to see how it's [not] been dealt with there. Or, in 'Blue Book' (pre 1996), not.

2013
http://www.righttoride.co.uk/2013/09/03 ... roadcraft/

[Bigyin]

As for not teaching filtering (and overtaking for that matter), it leaves riders with only one way to learn these crucial skills: making it up as you go along.* What could possibly go wrong?.

Overtaking is taught as part of Mod 2 syllabus