revtothelimit - motorbike forum

Mussels wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 2:09 pm And when you come to sell your car the next owner won't be thinking about a new £20k fuel tank when making an offer.

If Boris doesn't listen to reason (and he probably won't!) I will probably buy one of the last petrol hybrids and keep it as long as I can still drive. Secondhand price won't be a major issue.

Cousin Jack wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 2:05 pm

slowsider wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 1:24 pm

Cousin Jack wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:35 pm

Better, but not sufficient. I charged my petrol car this morning, in 5 mins, with enough for a range of 550 miles. And my petrol tank will last as long as the car, probably for 25 years.

Tboth moot - first, you didn't go on to drive 550 miles directly after recharging it; and second, you won't keep the car for 25 years.

You may be happy waiting for your EV to charge, I'm not. I drove into a filling station with 12 pumps, filled and left in 5 mins. So did a lot of other people. Even if your EV charging station has 12 charge points, even if everyone spends only 10 mins charging (and many will need longer because their car won't accept 150 kw), the queues will be horrible and you will spend at least twice as long in the queue.

You sound like you've never queued for petrol.

You 'charged' your car this morning, did whatever you were doing in the car, then drove home and parked up. I'd bet Potter's watches that it was idle for long enough to charge to full at home.
It's a whole new model. No-one refuels ICE vehicles at home, so we are not in the habit of it, but our vehicles are standing more than they are moving. The filling station is not going to function the way it does now.

So there will be fewer people using charging points resulting in a smaller queue for them.
I get the thinking but in a city or town with Victorian terraces and flats that won't count for much.

Mussels wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 5:12 pm So there will be fewer people using charging points resulting in a smaller queue for them.
I get the thinking but in a city or town with Victorian terraces and flats that won't count for much.

Which is why there are on-street charging systems being developed and why charging at workplaces, shops, etc. are becoming more common.

Look at the other way round: why travel to somewhere you don't want to be just to fill up with petrol?

I almost never drive out of my way for fuel or queue for it, any argument that electric is more convenient is really clutching at straws. It might change in the future and then I might change my mind.
Most houses near me have driveways but even so there are many cars parked on the street, the car charging shuffle would become a regular thing if they all had electric cars. Even if a house has parking for multiple cars it doesn't have the supply capacity to charge them at the same time, more charging shuffle but maybe without moving the cars around.

Most arguments for electric cars still have enormous holes in them and the main reasons to buy one are signalling either your virtue or your wealth. Part of the problem is evangelists who sing EV praises whilst pretending there are no downsides, when people realise they are being fed a load of propaganda then they'll switch off completely.

You dont refuel at home, so you go out of your way by definition. Making a virtue out of a necessity is not convincing.
By the same token, most people with multiple ICE cars dont refuel them at the same time, nor habitually drive 550 miles without a break.

As an analogy, I grew up using a phone that was in a fixed location, and didn't need recharging. My kids have no conception of that. Recharging it when they are not using it is second nature. Communication is now between people not locations. Transport will not be about ownership but about mobility.

The argument for EVs is not convenience, its inevitability.

Mussels wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 5:12 pm So there will be fewer people using charging points resulting in a smaller queue for them.
I get the thinking but in a city or town with Victorian terraces and flats that won't count for much.

Nor will it help me, my parking space is remote from the house and getting a cable from my meter to the space would involve PP ( I live in a listed building, in a conservation area inside a world heritage site), wayleaves from 4 people and 1 company, as well as costing a fortune. Charging at home is not a viable option.

Mussels wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 6:43 pm I almost never drive out of my way for fuel or queue for it, any argument that electric is more convenient is really clutching at straws.

Unless your route takes you to a petrol station, through the forecourt and past the pumps, then you do, even if only to a small degree.

Something worth thinking about is that, although there is massive investment on dedicated EV charging, as the number of EVs increases then there will be a general reduction in the number of 'fluid' pumps available.

And that's on top of the general reduction in the number of petrol stations (13,000 petrol stations on 2000, down to 9,000 in 2018).


But I wasn't trying to argue convenient but alternative, and that the number and variety of charging options is increasing.

slowsider wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 7:44 pm
The argument for EVs is not convenience, its inevitability.

It probably is inevitable, but get the technology mature and the infrastructure in place first. At the moment neither is.

The Wright brothers probably liked the idea of transatlantic air transport, they were not fool enough to try to introduce in 20 years.

Cousin Jack wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 8:11 pm

slowsider wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 7:44 pm
The argument for EVs is not convenience, its inevitability.

It probably is inevitable, but get the technology mature and the infrastructure in place first. At the moment neither is.

The Wright brothers probably liked the idea of transatlantic air transport, they were not fool enough to try to introduce in 20 years.

They didn't wait for airfields to be constructed before inventing the aircraft*

* A pedant notes that the first powered flight was actually in the UK.


As Dazzle often points out, the technology is evolving fast. Some new technology is revolution. Some that I've been involved with have been only one or two steps back from bizarre

Horse wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 8:35 pm They didn't wait for airfields to be constructed before inventing the aircraft*

* A pedant notes that the first powered flight was actually in the UK.


As Dazzle often points out, the technology is evolving fast. Some new technology is revolution. Some that I've been involved with have been only one or two steps back from bizarre

not
No, they didn't wait for airfields, but they soon found that using any old local field was not a good idea. Same as today, relying on a charger being available when and where you need it is fraught with problems. Sometimes it works, sometimes not.

Technology IS evolving fast, and one day electric (or other non-polluting vehicles) will be the norm. Just not yet, at least not for everyone. If I lived in a suburb, had a house with a garage, and commuted 30 miles a day into a city I would have an EV like a shot. I don't, and insisting I have one would give me a huge PITA. I suspect that an enormous number of people will realize that it causes them a PITA too, and for almost zero advantage. 'Going green' is laudable, but meanwhile China/Russia/India/Brazil and the good old USofA are not really taking global warming seriously, and our token effort will make 2/5 of 3/8 of the square root of FA difference to the planet.

What happens when there is a smash on the motorway and you have to sit for hours till things get cleared up or one of the many standstills due to snow. Could the battery keep the heaters running if you are stuck for the night. Probably not if you have been driving for the past 100 miles or so.

Potter wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 1:47 pm I don't want to take this thread off into a murky tangent but what are the immediate benefits of clean air in inner cities?
I would have thought the money could be spent better on better education, more policemen on the streets, the encouragement of family values instead of gangster values and educating fathers to hang around until their offspring is eighteen.

There are a fuck ton of better things to spend millions of pounds on.
I honestly couldn't give a fig about clean air when I visit London, I'm sure if I stayed there for long enough I'd be bludgeoned to death before I contracted lung cancer.

If the shit councils quite the failed ideas about traffic calming and bus lanes to get folk out there cars and onto public transport there would have been less shitty polluted air in the city. It was like a light switch turning rush hour into rush two hours probably three in the larger cities.

Cousin Jack wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 8:51 pm Same as today, relying on a charger being available when and where you need it is fraught with problems.

Currently 32,000 chargers available in the uk, plan is for 300,000 by 2030.

Cousin Jack wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 8:51 pm insisting I have one

Currently that's not planned until 2035, so you have plenty of time to wait for technology to catch up

For your situation, one of the technologies (actually developed for other purposes) is a drilling system that could tunnel from onside your house, avoiding damaging your block paving.

https://green-mole.co.uk/no-dig-car-cha ... allations/

Cousin Jack wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 8:51 pm square root of FA difference to the planet.

But a big difference to local air quality.

Horse wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 9:45 pm Currently 32,000 chargers exist in the uk, plan is for 300,000 by 2030.

FTFY. Also planning for and being available to use are quite different

Horse wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 9:45 pm For your situation, one of the technologies (actually developed for other purposes) is a drilling system that could tunnel from onside your house, avoiding damaging your block paving.
and
https://green-mole.co.uk/no-dig-car-cha ... allations/

I would be interested to see that avoid the 4 storm drains, 4 foul water drains, 4 gas pipes, 4 BT connexions and 4 electric supplies it will have to cross. I know technology moves on, but I hadn't realised thrust-boring had become that advanced.

Horse wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 9:45 pm But a big difference to local air quality.

My air quality is fine thank you.

Pooled low specification electric Renault Twangos! For the polluters.

Cousin Jack wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 10:44 pm

Horse wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 9:45 pm But a big difference to local air quality.

My air quality is fine thank you.

Perhaps yours is, many not so lucky.

Virtually every home in the UK is subjected to air pollution above World Health Organization guidelines, according to the most detailed map of dirty air to date.

More than 97% of addresses exceed WHO limits for at least one of three key pollutants, while 70% of addresses breach WHO limits for all three.

The map, produced by the non-profit group the Central Office of Public Interest (Copi) and Imperial College London, combined 20,000 measurements with computer modelling to produce pollution estimates every 20 metres across the country. People can check their address at the website addresspollution.org for free.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... data-shows

Cousin Jack wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 8:11 pm

slowsider wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 7:44 pm
The argument for EVs is not convenience, its inevitability.

It probably is inevitable, but get the technology mature and the infrastructure in place first. At the moment neither is.

The Wright brothers probably liked the idea of transatlantic air transport, they were not fool enough to try to introduce in 20 years.

Gottlieb Daimler didn't wait for a network of Little Chefs to be established either. Roads were crap, (they were improved for the sake of bicycles not cars), there were no filling stations, and repairs were done by blacksmiths. Less auspicious beginnings for the last transport revolution than for this one.

GD was a bit late on bringing motorised vehicles into use.

The invention of the first model electric vehicle is attributed to various people.[7] In 1828, the Hungarian priest and physicist Ányos Jedlik invented an early type of electric motor, and created a small model car powered by his new motor. Between 1832 and 1839, Scottish inventor Robert Anderson also invented a crude electric carriage.[8] In 1835, Professor Sibrandus Stratingh of Groningen, the Netherlands and his assistant Christopher Becker from Germany also created a small-scale electric car, powered by non-rechargeable primary cells.[9]


See, Dazzle is correct when he says that EV tech is developing

IIRC the original land speed record was set by an electric car.