revtothelimit - motorbike forum

Horse wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:11 pm I quite like that Ghostship 0.5 stuff.

Sometimes drink it out of choice ...

First time I had it, it was definitely missing something. But wasn't terrible. It is nice having a choice of low alcohol drinks for when you're driving though

Hairybiker84 wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:06 pm Nasty, excellent! Guess that's not the crab Cromer

The Rising Sun Halls Green. Only round the corner from Stevenage really which is a hovel but get 5 miles away and the whole area between the A1, A505, A10 and A602 is a rabbit warren of tiny nadgery tracks and middle of nowhere hamlets. It's about 12 miles north of me but the Sat Nav made it 17 miles of wilderness hooning

Not far from the Old Bourne, one of the most evil little trails in South East England, when it's wet, in the dry it 's just a hill and a river bed.

Couchy wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:15 pm Tbh I did try to get instruction on a Trackday, I told them I only wanted to get my knee down and they told me to piss off in some weird norvern accent

I remember you. The lad who bought my old knee sliders

Supermofo wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:46 pm The more interesting part seems to have been to difficult for the google car, but this gives a flavour
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.90154 ... 6656?hl=en

Is that actually drinkable? I say that from a position of liking Ghost Ship - one of my tipples of choice at the beer fest at Broadstairs folk week.

That road's a 3 to 4 on the Goat Road Scale. Don't tell me I've never explained the Goat Road Scale?

A One Goat road is a typical country lane which is narrow but allows two vehicles to pass without too much problem.

A Two Goat road doesn't have room for two vehicles to pass each other without on stopping at a wider passing place.

A Three Goat road has a surface with intermittent patches of sand, mud or gravel.

A Four Goat road has a continuous strip of mud, gravel or even grass growing down the middle, making it difficult to switch from one tyre track to the other.

And finally a Five Goat road is one where any hint of the original surface has long disappeared into potholes and been covered up by stones and mud! My favourite farm shop (mmm, guinea fowl...) is down a road like this. It's even tough in a car in the winter.

I always try to fit in something appropriately Goaty on a bends training session

The Spin Doctor wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 5:11 pm

Supermofo wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:46 pm The more interesting part seems to have been to difficult for the google car, but this gives a flavour
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.90154 ... 6656?hl=en

Is that actually drinkable? I say that from a position of liking Ghost Ship - one of my tipples of choice at the beer fest at Broadstairs folk week.

My favourite beer is Doombar. This stuff is more citrus, along IPA lines.

I'm not a fan of 'creosote' beers.

Rockburner wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:05 am I think it depends enormously on your experience with interactions with IAM riders.

As I said earlier, I've seen some atrocious behaviour and attitudes from IAM riders, some genuinely dangerous and idiotic (arrogant and aggressive) riding and a genuine disbelief that they've done anything wrong when later questioned about it.

It really does. I have had bad experiences with the IAM, but I also know some IAM Observers who are good riders and nice people too.

IMO the IAM have an institutional problem that most charities have. Managing staff is much easier than managing volunteers! Herding cats is a doddle by comparison, but managing is still very necessary, and I don't think the IAM have done it too well.

The Spin Doctor wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 5:11 pm
That road's a 3 to 4 on the Goat Road Scale. Don't tell me I've never explained the Goat Road Scale?

A One Goat road is a typical country lane which is narrow but allows two vehicles to pass without too much problem.

A Two Goat road doesn't have room for two vehicles to pass each other without on stopping at a wider passing place.

A Three Goat road has a surface with intermittent patches of sand, mud or gravel.

A Four Goat road has a continuous strip of mud, gravel or even grass growing down the middle, making it difficult to switch from one tyre track to the other.

And finally a Five Goat road is one where any hint of the original surface has long disappeared into potholes and been covered up by stones and mud! My favourite farm shop (mmm, guinea fowl...) is down a road like this. It's even tough in a car in the winter.

I always try to fit in something appropriately Goaty on a bends training session

You would have loved Abels route selection in Norway as many of them were 4 to 5 on your goat scale ...... good ones were 2 to 3. Many hadnt seen much traffic in years apart from dirtbikes and snow mobiles. Quite a challenge on heavily loaded ADV bikes on road tyres

The Spin Doctor wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 9:13 am

Noggin wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:58 am I had a similar experience (from a learning point of view) - I showed my first riding buddy the CCS leaflet many many years ago and said I was considering it. After the next two morning rideouts, he pointed out that we'd covered the syllabus!!

The difference is that CSS break down the overall goal into smaller, bite-sized pieces which are easier to chew and swallow. For each chunk, they cover the topic first in theory, then offer the opportunity to practice that particular technique in a controlled environment, followed by feedback on how you performed and what needs to be changed, then you get the chance to apply that correction, before moving onto the next topic. It's a way to structure coaching that aids the learning process immensely.

I use the same structured approach but without a handy track, I use the road, choosing the routes to set different challenges.

Your buddy may - or may not - have done the same. I don't know. But my experience (directly when I myself was a novice, and indirectly through talking to trainees) is that most new riders who are shown the ropes by more experienced riders are simply told "follow me and do what I do". How do they know what the rider ahead is doing if he / she doesn't explain? I certainly didn't. How do you know who is riding well enough to follow? I remember one ride on my 125 following a much more experienced (well, he'd passed his test two years earlier) rider who was busy telling me I was too slow, and cleared off into the distance. I passed him a few minutes later pulling his Norton Dominator out of a hedge.

I was lucky, my friend is an excellent teacher. Observes and is then able to explain in a way you can understand. That last is the bit I often struggle with - I don't do technical, don't understand some descriptions of stuff. K was blooming brilliant (used to race at quite a high level once upon a time!) - he always seemed to find a way to explain things so I got it and then we went and tried again on a different bit of road! He seemed to have quite a few 'handy' roads that I wouldn't have thought would work, but each was perfect for the sort of riding he chose! Like I say - I have been very lucky with the people I learnt from/with

I very much doubt that anyone I rode with, who didn't know what I did for a living, would know I was advanced trained. I never told anyone, but my colleagues and family knew. I never went balls out on rides as I valued my licence, and some magistrates love to throw the book at riders who they think should "know better".

And I appreciate riders that can wheelie for hundreds of yards (I can't) or someine that can ride with the rear wheel spinning and smoking at over 60 mph. That takes some control.

A lot of my job involved sitting around on my stationary bike for many hours, then having to ride when the target moved, often many hours later. So being able to "switch on" was vital without getting the red mist decending.

Yorick wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 1:31 pm When I was instructing, I had the whole range of ability, but could be snipped to 3 groups.....

......The clever ones watched and listened. I did enjoy really pushing to almost racing speed

A group of friends and I do the British Superbike School "Introduction to Trackdays" day at Blyton Park. Each instructor has two or maybe three riders with them for the full day.

You can tell who listens and acts on what they were told before each session, and who were doing their own thing. Those that did came on leaps and bounds (including me). Last time I went it was for me a proper trackday, fast 1 to 1 instruction with an instructor for 3 of my 5 sessions.

Once a young woman turned up on her Ducati Moster. She had been riding for 3 years, but only commuted from her home to the office and back. This was all on a series of staights linked by left and right turns. Start of the day she was slow and looked scared stiff on the tight left hand bend by the pit entrance. By the end of the day she was hitting a perfect line through the bend, and at a fair pace ttoo.I bet she enjoyed riding further afield after that.

While I began with track days, I bought into road riding instruction because I enjoyed it. Unlike the IAM, my instructors (Rapid Training, @The Spin Doctor, Blue Riband) were professional riders. The courses were all very different but fun. And I got more out of them than superbike school.

Also, the training’s added even more fun to my road riding (in the same way that circuit instruction helped me get more out of track days).

Incidentally, I know @The Spin Doctor mightn’t come across online as a party animal But his training was enjoyable and rewarding.

Couchy wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:44 am It's interesting, on track instruction is probably easier to sell than on road as it's seen as cool to go faster.

I agree and guess it’s the reason for the name Rapid Training. However, Rapid has the odd TT racer among its instructors (not your usual stereotype for an advanced riding instructor).

Whysub wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:53 pm I very much doubt that anyone I rode with, who didn't know what I did for a living, would know I was advanced trained. I never told anyone, but my colleagues and family knew. I never went balls out on rides as I valued my licence, and some magistrates love to throw the book at riders who they think should "know better".

And I appreciate riders that can wheelie for hundreds of yards (I can't) or someine that can ride with the rear wheel spinning and smoking at over 60 mph. That takes some control.

A lot of my job involved sitting around on my stationary bike for many hours, then having to ride when the target moved, often many hours later. So being able to "switch on" was vital without getting the red mist decending.

I had a superb time in my surveillance career but you had the job i always wanted. I tried to get on a team with bikes a couple of times but due to a personality clash with someone who led that team i was blocked and told not to bother applying anymore which lasted for over 20 years. I would have only got that role if i left and transferred to a different force or organisation. Stupid really as i knew i could do a decent job and a one of the guys that got the ticket was a brand new license holder within the team (when advertised it required 3 years experience on a bike 600cc plus ) and i never ever found out why he had the issue with me as nobody would tell me apart from "He doesnt want you on the team" despite me working well with others from the same team

Ah well ..... life turned out ok but would have been fun to have had a go

While I agree with a chunk of your snake oil reasoning, some of it is misplaced. Marquez is a great rider, he may well be a shit riding coach. Luca Cadalero was Rossi’s riding coach. Do you think he’d be as good a rider as Rossi? Alex Ferguson didn’t set the world alight as a player but he was a pretty good manager/coach.

If the great MotoGP riders can do what they do naturally then why have they all got riding coaches? Why does Ronnie O’Sullivan have a playing coach?

In the business world, a lot of business owners have ‘mentors’, people who they can use to bounce ideas off, discuss strategies etc. I would bet that your boss has something similar in place.

Back to biking, it’s been said before that you start off with a big bag of luck and a small bag of experience. The trick is to fill the experience bag up before the luck bag runs out. If you can find a way to give that process a helping hand then why wouldn’t you?

Early in my biking journey I did a bikesafe day and, although I didn’t learn that much on that day, I knew I wanted to be able to hustle the bike down a country road with good risk management in the same way he did. It gave me an idea what sort of rider I wanted to be and a level of competence to aim for.

I understand why the police do it, but I’m not now a fan of the fairly rigid, riding by numbers approach. Over the years you absorb your techniques from different sources, the trick is to be able to identify which sources are valid and which aren’t. You put these together and develop your own style and always be open to picking new bits and pieces up. The law of diminishing returns applies though.

Is professional coaching sold to us to improve our road riding skills, road riding enjoyment or improve our risk assessment and safety awareness.

Dodgy knees wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:48 am Is professional coaching sold to us to improve our road riding skills, road riding enjoyment or improve our risk assessment and safety awareness.

Does it have to be either/or?

Potter wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:14 am I'm simply saying that the majority of people that ride a motorcycle don't need (and indeed don't ask for) these improvement courses, so if you want to make a living from it then you'll need to be good at marketing and talking it up.

I completely disagree, the vast majority of motorcyclists I see definitely do need these improvement courses (not that they would see it that way I guess). Along with how not to be a knob and alienate yourself from lots of other road users.

Unfortunately the second part of that could also apply to lots of people that cycle on the roads

Potter wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:14 am ....so if you want to make a living from it then you'll need to be good at marketing and talking it up.

I wouldn’t disagree with that but would argue that it applies to a lot of businesses in the tertiary sector.

Why would I need a financial advisor? I can fill in a tax return, why would I need an accountant, etc.?

Hairybiker84 wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 9:06 am

Potter wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:14 am I'm simply saying that the majority of people that ride a motorcycle don't need (and indeed don't ask for) these improvement courses, so if you want to make a living from it then you'll need to be good at marketing and talking it up.

I completely disagree, the vast majority of motorcyclists I see definitely do need these improvement courses (not that they would see it that way I guess). Along with how not to be a knob and alienate yourself from lots of other road users.

Unfortunately the second part of that could also apply to lots of people that cycle on the roads

If I didn't want to be alienated I wouldn't ride a motorbike that's so fast compared to the cars around it. The alienation comes from the performance and the fun of riding comes from that performance too.

Potter wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:14 am I'm simply saying that the majority of people that ride a motorcycle don't need (and indeed don't ask for) these improvement courses, so if you want to make a living from it then you'll need to be good at marketing and talking it up.

Simply? You sure that you didn't write Ronnie Corbett's 'chair' monologues?

I'll write something equally as long

This might surprise you, but I sort of agree.

A lot of what is sold as 'high standard advanced' riding is actually close to what a good 'L' course might cover. Particularly for extra 'advanced' driving techniques, much of it is irrelevant to the average driver.

Riders are different as there's far more of the hobby/enthusiast aspect. Many riders, though, don't have a secure grasp of basics and typical 'advanced' training isn't set up to help.

But if - and it's a big if - L courses were thorough and effective, we should have fewer riders crashing out of bends at (what the investigators say) manageable speeds. Riders still blithely ride into others' crashes (classic SMIDSY, the legendary U turning taxi, etc). That, unfortunately, implies that either or both of two things might be happening: training is insufficient or riders CBA to take notice of it (and that's not ignoring that 'people make mistakes' etc, because better training might overcome some of that).

Take your son's crash: was there anything about the build up to that situation that training could have covered? If he learned from the crash and thinks he won't repeat it, then that suggests it was something his training could have included. Or did it, he forgot, was full of the joys of new bike ownership, etc?

'But' No 2. Go back to my list of simple, fixable, things that everyday riders do (posted in reply to Couchie). However, when I was heavily involved in rider training it largely wasn't set up to train (to avoid) those areas, it then was either wobble for CBT and 'advanced'. There was a big hole for middle level skills. Mod1 may have improved that, although I was still training people on those techniques up to 2008.

I don't know how you get 'majority' (said for comic effect, or justifiable?), I said 'many' and I'm not going to put a % on it. Although if there's half a million active riders in the UK (I really don't know, that's a 'pluck a number'), then even a 'few' is a lot of people. FWIW, at one time, the Thames Valley IAM group had about 900-1000 members.

There's a further issue: if I as a trainer help you to ride faster on-road, what's a likely result? Helping people commit bikie-facilitated hari kiri is hardly a great advertising strategy. That's why there needs to be the 'caution' element to. If, instead, I help you identify places not to go [relatively] fast, then you can decide for yourself what to do elsewhere.

And that second type is actually the bit of 'advanced' training that makes the difference. Whether you want to call it hazard prediction, insight, situation awareness, doesn't matter. If you want to get home in a fit state for you and your bike to go out again the next day, that's probably an important aspect to work on. I appreciate that's perilously close to your 'take training or die' type training advertising statements, the difference is the content supporting it, simply: know where it often goes wrong, sort that. Rders are rarely innovative, they insist on enjoying the three main 'gotcha' crashes: smidsy, bends, overtaking (with filtering a #4 if you separate it from overtaking). All of those can largely be avoided by identifying the situation and riding accordingly.

Nothing 'advanced', it's basic.

Hairybiker84 wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 9:06 am

Potter wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:14 am I'm simply saying that the majority of people that ride a motorcycle don't need (and indeed don't ask for) these improvement courses, so if you want to make a living from it then you'll need to be good at marketing and talking it up.

I completely disagree, the vast majority of motorcyclists I see definitely do need these improvement courses (not that they would see it that way I guess). Along with how not to be a knob and alienate yourself from lots of other road users.

Unfortunately the second part of that could also apply to lots of people that cycle on the roads

And car drivers. And truck drivers. Etc etc

It applies to all road users really

Potter wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 9:17 am

Hairybiker84 wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 9:06 am
I completely disagree, the vast majority of motorcyclists I see definitely do need these improvement courses (not that they would see it that way I guess). Along with how not to be a knob and alienate yourself from lots of other road users.

Unfortunately the second part of that could also apply to lots of people that cycle on the roads

To be honest you could be right, I always argue my points robustly but I always leave a gap to be wrong. I'm basing my opinions on growing up on bikes and riding them with other mates that did the same. I don't ride with anyone bad enough to need tuition, but perhaps the modern day motorcyclist needs this service.

I rarely see a motorcyclist that isn't capable of being safe and having fun, but some of the newer ones ride too fast for the road, although that's an ego thing, it's not a practical skills training thing.

I think it's different now as so few people grow up learning in fields/on quiet local roads and they just go out, do a CBT then a test and buy a bike. I was fully aware that when I did my test it only taught me how to ride a bike to pass the test, not how to actually ride a bike (although my instructor was really good and probably gave me more info than the test syllabus required).

But then, when I learnt to drive a car, my SDad said the same thing - "you will learn how to pass your test, then you have to learn how to drive"

And because I was 32, not 17 when I got my first bike, and had had a gap of about 6 years from taking the test to actually getting a bike, I was more aware that I needed more instruction.

I think that, had I been hooning around the fields on a bike and learning when the tyres let go and how to get it round a corning safely and doing stupid stuff and hopefully surviving, then I reckon I'd have been much more able to ride on the road and wouldn't have had the feeling that more instruction would help