CBT Booked

[Horse]

Which is why I don't do 10-5, let alone the 8-5 'police style' course I enquired about... that's far too long.

We had it well honed, paced to suit the individuals, plenty of breaks and absolutely no pressure.

It many ways it was like a growned-up CBT. The 5pm finish included handing over a glee pack etc.

The afternoon ride was usually either the same 15 miles mix of urban and rural or, if it was someone who had bought a bike, for them to ride it home.*

However, third option was available for those who coped well, to go for a longer jaunt.


* And how often the question "Do you have a gravel drive?" paid off ...

[The Spin Doctor]

* And how often the question "Do you have a gravel drive?" paid off ...

I still recall having to ride an ST1300 up a gravel drive... returning rider had already dropped it in his own garage before he'd even ridden it. He claimed to have owned an ST11 in the past, but watching him struggling with the 13, I very much doubt he'd done more than up and down the road, and I seriously doubted that he'd actually got any of the riding experience he claimed - my guess is that he had passed his test 15 years earlier, and never got a bike.

He'd bought it because the dealer had told him it was an ideal commuter. I suggested he chopped it straight back in for a Deauville... or just put it at the back of the garage and bought a cheapie Dullville and rode that for a few months to get used to the roads again.

[Bigyin]

No, I'm not restricted.. I'm ancient!!

My riding has really improved - as has my confidence. I've done more riding in the last week than I have in the last 2 years.

I hear you about DAS training - I really want to take it slower - most places round here seem to do 'intensive' 3 or 5 day courses. I'd rather do it in half sessions. The second CBT place I went to was far more friendly and relaxed than the first - so part of me thinks bite they bullet and test there - they did say come back at Easter tho.. I'm south London (/surrey) for any recommendations.

I'm working on my theory test at the moment! As I have to do that too...

Dont forget DAS training is about getting you through a test. Once you have done that then you learn to ride a bike

My place must be unusual then as we do Mod 1 training in 4 hour slots ...... most people only need that to get to test standard. We normally do it a day or 2 days before your test date so its fresh in your head. Mod 2 training is another 4 hours, but on the road split into 2 sessions with a break for a cuppa and snack in the middle, again a day or 2 before test

We are a bit far from you up at the Norfolk/Suffolk border though.

If you can find a school willing to offer half days, then go for it. Otherwise take the longest course you can afford - it'll proceed at a more relaxed pace than if the trainer is desperately trying to get someone up to test standard in less time than they really need. From what I heard, most schools are struggling to get test slots because the DVSA simply haven't managed to reverse the waiting lists that grew under COVID.

Again we must be lucky where we are as we can get test slots fairly easy at the moment with only a couple of weeks to wait but sometimes we pick up the test slots other schools have binned off as their students arent ready. We had one bloke last week pass his Mod1 on Monday and when we looked for a test date managed to get one on Friday so he came in Thursday, did his Mod 2 training and passed Friday

[Scootabout]

I'm south London (/surrey) for any recommendations.

There's Phoenix, based at Crystal Palace. I've not used them personally, although when I was doing some sessions with LAM the guy who runs Phoenix was the chairman of that group. My son took his training and test through them a few years ago.

[The Spin Doctor]

Dont forget DAS training is about getting you through a test. Once you have done that then you learn to ride a bike

I absolutely, categorically and 100% disagree.

CBT teaches you the basics. A good DAS course teaches you to use those skills in 90% of the riding situations you'll ever experience on the road including cornering. A rider with a good DAS pass will cope with those situations without drama.

If all the training does is teach you to pass a test and you have to teach yourself afterwards, then the training is poor.

[Bigyin]

Dont forget DAS training is about getting you through a test. Once you have done that then you learn to ride a bike

I absolutely, categorically and 100% disagree.

CBT teaches you the basics. A good DAS course teaches you to use those skills in 90% of the riding situations you'll ever experience on the road including cornering. A rider with a good DAS pass will cope with those situations without drama.

If all the training does is teach you to pass a test and you have to teach yourself afterwards, then the training is poor.

Ok, i will clarify what i mean by "pass a test"

As a normal daily rider with a full license do you carry out a complete set of observations every time you move away from a standing start either kerbside or in traffic, i doubt it. Fail to do that in a test and you will rack up minor faults.

On an empty roundabout with no traffic around you will probably take the shortest path of resistance straight across it. You will get a fault for positioning and lanes on a test if you did that.

On approach to a left hand bend you will move yourself to the position 3 near the centre line to allow yourself a better view around the bend ....do that on a test and its a position fault for putting yourself in a dangerous position when you should be in the centre of the lane. I even asked for clarification from DAS assesors on that one as the DVSA "Official guide to riding" even suggests moving to position 3 "if its safe to do so" yet riders are being failed on test for exactly that.

That is just a couple of examples of what i meant, you are taught the best practise for each situation and what the examiner is looking for. You then develop your riding further with more experience after passing your test .....not "teach yourself afterwards" as you implied

By your own post at the start of this thread does a CBT course even teach you the basics

Don't forget, CBT isn't about making you a skilled rider - it's about giving you just enough ability to get round the two hour road ride in one piece.

I would like to think anyone i have signed off is better than that ........ getting around in one piece implies they can just about ride and managed not to crash. If someone is looking to progress straight to DAS i will try and get them to a standard close to passing a test on a 125 if at all possible before they have even sat on a bigger bike.

[The Spin Doctor]

Ok, i will clarify what i mean by "pass a test"

As a normal daily rider with a full license do you carry out a complete set of observations every time you move away from a standing start either kerbside or in traffic, i doubt it. Fail to do that in a test and you will rack up minor faults.

Depends what you mean - you don't need to check mirrors then left AND right shoulder on test. I will check mirrors and then usually take a blind spot glance depending on where the hole is that another PTW could have slid into.

On an empty roundabout with no traffic around you will probably take the shortest path of resistance straight across it. You will get a fault for positioning and lanes on a test if you did that.

Actually, I wouldn't. A roundabout is a junction, therefore I'd take a path that minimised risk rather than emphasised progress. So on a roundabout with obstructed views even if I were on my own I'd approach on the right in order to get a better view a) around the back of the island and b) into the junction on the left. But that doesn't go with the 'keep left' instruction in the HC, I agree. But if you teach roundabouts as a problem to be dealt with, rather than a location that needs a particular 'system' of position, signals, observations etc, then you can cover the risks posed by the driver who pulls out on your.

On approach to a left hand bend you will move yourself to the position 3 near the centre line to allow yourself a better view around the bend ....do that on a test and its a position fault for putting yourself in a dangerous position when you should be in the centre of the lane. I even asked for clarification from DAS assesors on that one as the DVSA "Official guide to riding" even suggests moving to position 3 "if its safe to do so" yet riders are being failed on test for exactly that.

You'd probably be surprised how conservative I am on left-handers simply because there isn't the benefit in extra view that's always claimed... you can prove that via trigonometry, scale drawing, or simply parking up and walking the metre and a half from a centre of the lane position to a right-of-centre position... and the only reason for taking a wider line is to go faster in any case - you can always slow down if you really can't see.

That is just a couple of examples of what i meant, you are taught the best practise for each situation and what the examiner is looking for. You then develop your riding further with more experience after passing your test .....not "teach yourself afterwards" as you implied

But that's a very limited subset of riding, if all you consider is the HC rules. What about all the awareness of where scoots and cycles will try to sneak up alongside? What about the need to understand that even keeping tight to the kerb when turning left doesn't stop a Deliveroo rider in full flow? What about understanding that if you keep to your lane on the roundabout, the car alongside you might not, or the car at the exit ahead might still pull out on you?

Yes, you can teach people to do the 'nodding dog' lifesaver on a right turn and they'll score 'nul points' for nodding in the right place... but if you teach lifesavers properly, you explain what they are supposed to achieve and why they really are necessary. You can see the riders who've been 'taught to pass the test' because they drop lifesavers as soon as they're out of the test centre, just as you can see riders who've been taught to pass the advanced test because they insist on holding wide-right positions around blind bends and in the face of oncoming traffic.

By your own post at the start of this thread does a CBT course even teach you the basics

Don't forget, CBT isn't about making you a skilled rider - it's about giving you just enough ability to get round the two hour road ride in one piece.

I would like to think anyone i have signed off is better than that ........ getting around in one piece implies they can just about ride and managed not to crash. If someone is looking to progress straight to DAS i will try and get them to a standard close to passing a test on a 125 if at all possible before they have even sat on a bigger bike.

Having run several thousand CBT and DAS courses over the years I was a basic trainer, I did my damndest to get riders to the best standard I could manage in two hours on the road, but were they 'competent'? In very few cases. The extra three or four days of our DAS courses was enough to deliver some solid competency. Not expert by any means, but mostly competent enough to recognise that adhering to the Highway Code wasn't going to provide an invulnerability shield, and competent enough to be aware of their weaknesses - and that's the real sign of a good training course - some insight into what the trainee DOESN'T know.

[Bigyin]

I knew i shouldnt have bothered trying to explain what i meant in quick simple terms as i knew it would either get " fair enough, i understand where you were coming from" or more likely exactly what i got in response above where its all picked apart. <sigh>

I dont have either the time or inclination to finely pick apart each individual aspect of training and word for word debate on the internet. Its your ethos and how you make your living so fair enough i understand that. I know i am at the lower end of the training spectrum in comparison to others on here but i also know from feedback from my peers, students and now the local examiners i am quite good at what i do.

When i read a few excerpts from your replies i think "thats what i meant but maybe its read wrong here" or "i already do that but i didnt type a huge long detailed response " but i havent spent the last 20 or so years presenting training in fine detail or writing books/articles on the subject with a degree in post test training. I am fairly reticent to get too involved in this particular part of the forum for those exact reasons

This is an example of it

But that's a very limited subset of riding, if all you consider is the HC rules. What about all the awareness of where scoots and cycles will try to sneak up alongside? What about the need to understand that even keeping tight to the kerb when turning left doesn't stop a Deliveroo rider in full flow? What about understanding that if you keep to your lane on the roundabout, the car alongside you might not, or the car at the exit ahead might still pull out on you?

I spent an extra 30 minutes this evening (we started at 0800, didnt finish till 1800 when it was getting dark) with a 17 year old on a moped who wasnt understanding exactly that and turning left from the right hand side of a left lane on a roundabout. The kid had some learning difficulties and instead of a 2 hour "just survive without crashing and sign him off" i kept him out doing multiple junctions and roundabouts till he could keep to the inside kerb, keep to the right lane for a 3rd exit etc etc ........ i might not type all this down but its part of my script to already build in e scooters, pushbikes, ebikes etc diving left right and centre on even the basic junctions lessons before we even start on roundabouts which he struggled with.

I try and help people if i can on this part of the forum a little bit but I'll leave the fine detail stuff to you and Horse

[Horse]

I knew i shouldnt have bothered trying to explain what i meant in quick simple terms as i knew it would either get " fair enough, i understand where you were coming from" or more likely exactly what i got in response above where its all picked apart.

It's your own fault, you know.

Earlier in the thread you had a pop at me for derailing Tigs' thread. Now look what you've done

but I'll leave the fine detail stuff to you and Horse

Well, I was going to keep out of this, but since you asked so nicely ...

[Horse]

On approach to a left hand bend you will move yourself to the position 3 near the centre line to allow yourself a better view around the bend ....do that on a test and its a position fault for putting yourself in a dangerous position when you should be in the centre of the lane. I even asked for clarification from DAS assesors on that one as the DVSA "Official guide to riding" even suggests moving to position 3 "if its safe to do so" yet riders are being failed on test for exactly that.

You'd probably be surprised how conservative I am on left-handers simply because there isn't the benefit in extra view that's always claimed... you can prove that via trigonometry, scale drawing, or simply parking up and walking the metre and a half from a centre of the lane position to a right-of-centre position... and the only reason for taking a wider line is to go faster in any case - you can always slow down if you really can't see.

How much extra view is gained by 'P3' or even 5 for a left hand bend?

View of the nearside? Not much.

http://the-ride-info-new.blogspot.com/2 ... n.html?m=1

There are various reasons for positioning 'right' for left bends. A couple are:

Better view. See above. Be sure that you're not getting lulled into a false sense of security/stupidity by the improved view of the limit point - your view to the left isn't improved substantially, so speed choice must allow for that.

Reducing lean angle / less work for tyres, etc. Pick some bends on Google satellite view, look at how narrow the lane is compared with the bend radius. Any benefits will only happen on much tighter bends.

Edit: a third is 'improved view of oncoming hazards'. Except that that view gained is 'time' - which is needed to move away from the oncoming whatever.

You (BY) know all this from your training. But do you expect all/most/many/some post-DAS riders to work it out for themselves?

[The Spin Doctor]

I knew i shouldnt have bothered trying to explain what i meant in quick simple terms as i knew it would either get " fair enough, i understand where you were coming from" or more likely exactly what i got in response above where its all picked apart. <sigh>

I dont have either the time or inclination to finely pick apart each individual aspect of training and word for word debate on the internet. Its your ethos and how you make your living so fair enough i understand that. I know i am at the lower end of the training spectrum in comparison to others on here but i also know from feedback from my peers, students and now the local examiners i am quite good at what i do.

The point I was making was that I don't ride THAT differently from what I taught on DAS because GOOD riding isn't that different - it's in the interests of most advanced trainers to claim there are huge differences between a newly trained rider and an 'advanced' rider but the fact is, if you can pilot a bike from A to B without piling it into the scenery, you're not that bad.

I'm honest. I tweak stuff for post-test training, I correct things that slipped through the net, I spend a lot of time focussing on improving hazard perception, risk assessment and risk management, and I work on getting riders to use a systematic approach to cornering. And when I get trainees who have experience of other trainers like a well-known police run training school, those riders are usually surprised just how much more they learned with me.

But the fact is that unless a basic trainer taught someone to ride in the first place, the trainee would struggle to make it as far as the meeting point where I pick them up. In all the couple of thousand advanced courses I've run over the last twenty five years, I can think of just a couple where the person shouldn't have been on a bike and I had to go absolutely back to basics to give them the skills they should have had to pass the test in the first place. I still remember Marina... how she ever got a test pass on her 125 I have zero idea. She had no clutch control, she had no ability to get the bike to steer, and so she couldn't turn corners. Terrifying (hadn't stopped TVAM attempting to teach her advanced skills though - "I'm so bad I've had a dozen different observers and a couple of senior observers and they use me to train up their new observers"... I'm not kidding, that's what she told me.)

Seriously though, if you really believe that you only "teach riders to pass the test" and don't give them some serious skills to stay alive, you're kidding yourself... just like the IAM do when they claim that riders come out of basic training lacking competency. But I don't believe that for a moment.

When i read a few excerpts from your replies i think "thats what i meant but maybe its read wrong here" or "i already do that but i didnt type a huge long detailed response

Let's be fair. I wrote: "I absolutely, categorically and 100% disagree" in response to your claim that training only teaches you to pass the test and that you learn the rest afterwards. That was pretty short. It was your response that which needed more explanation.

but i havent spent the last 20 or so years presenting training in fine detail or writing books/articles on the subject with a degree in post test training. I am fairly reticent to get too involved in this particular part of the forum for those exact reasons

Everyone has a valid viewpoint. But if people post stuff that can - and SHOULD - be challenged, then challenge it I will. I know the forum's not as popular as the old days of VD when there were thousands of views of some posts, but there's always the risk that someone will read a statement like that and believe it. That's why people stop doing life savers.

I spent an extra 30 minutes this evening (we started at 0800, didnt finish till 1800 when it was getting dark) with a 17 year old on a moped who wasnt understanding exactly that and turning left from the right hand side of a left lane on a roundabout. The kid had some learning difficulties and instead of a 2 hour "just survive without crashing and sign him off" i kept him out doing multiple junctions and roundabouts till he could keep to the inside kerb, keep to the right lane for a 3rd exit etc etc ........ i might not type all this down but its part of my script to already build in e scooters, pushbikes, ebikes etc diving left right and centre on even the basic junctions lessons before we even start on roundabouts which he struggled with.

And that's exactly what I meant when I say that none of us teaching people to ride just cover 'passing the test'. Yes, it's the outcome goal we're after but we work far harder than that to impart skills.

I try and help people if i can on this part of the forum a little bit but I'll leave the fine detail stuff to you and Horse

Don't be silly. That helps no-one.