Would you have an electric car if you had the money for a new car and were in the market for one?

[Potter]

We're not suddenly gonna make EVs possible or not. They're already possible.

IIRC currently it's 5% EV and 95% ICE driving around on the roads.
So it's possible but so far from opinions this afternoon we've had anything from 10yrs to 25yrs for change to happen, so I suppose it's answered my question and I'm struggling to see change at the scale of 95% swap, without some sort of push, casually drifting into it is going to take longer.

So I suppose I don't need to worry about overnight technology changes at this stage, but then by the same token there is no incentive to do away with my ICE motors.

[Mussels]

There are many more EVs available now than five years ago but I don't see much improvement. Ranges have got bigger but I expect that's more to do with massaging figures and bigger batteries than any real improvement.

[Potter]

I did notice in the UK that car parks have more EV charging points.
I only noticed them because they were empty and the rest of the car park was full of ICE cars, I got a bit fed up looking at them to be honest because there was never anywhere to park and those empty spaces were a waste of time.

[Mr. Dazzle]

IIRC currently it's 5% EV and 95% ICE driving around on the roads.

In terms of cars currently on the road maybe, but for example this year in the UK more than 20% of new cars sold were plug in on one way or another...and its plug in vehciles which are legal after 2030, not just pure EVs.

There are many more EVs available now than five years ago but I don't see much improvement. Ranges have got bigger but I expect that's more to do with massaging figures and bigger batteries than any real improvement.

Think about what you're saying here though. You can now buy an EV with a bigger battery than you could before, but in the same sized car for the same price. That's almost entirely down to the reduction price of batteries which in turn is down the rapid ramping up of the tech.

[Mr. Dazzle]

I did notice in the UK that car parks have more EV charging points.
I only noticed them because they were empty and the rest of the car park was full of ICE cars, I got a bit fed up looking at them to be honest because there was never anywhere to park and those empty spaces were a waste of time.

This is pure negative nelly though innit?

"No point buying an EV, there's no where to charge it"

"No point installing a charger, nobody has an EV".

Someone has to jump first....

Edit: Oh, and the other thing people always overlook is that maybe EVs ranges are actually good enough that you can just charge cheaply at home and they don't actually need to charge when they're out and about. Think about how many Teslas you see in normal spaces these days.

[Cousin Jack]

Hence my questions.

Illegal to sell ICE cars in 8yrs, the forum EV engineer saying his technology won't trickle down to wide scale consumers for 10yrs.
Jaguar saying they'll cease ICE production in 4yrs.

It's not adding up fellas, unless we're going to see new technology and infrastructure emerge soon, and unless everyone is literally talking bollocks then I'm expecting to see the technology that makes EV cars mainstream everywhere by 2025.

It doesn't add up. If the infrastructure doesn't ramp up massively electric cars will remain niche. And any party that continues to ban ICE stuff is likely to have a VERY rough time at the polls.
There are massive numbers of people without garages or even driveways (I am one) for whom a fully electric car is as much use as a chocolate teapot. Give me decent range (3-400 miles at a decent pace, with lights, heater and wipers on) and fast (10 min) charging, make sure there are adequate charge points everywhere (even in deepest darkest Cornwall) and I will probably buy an electric car. Miss out any part of that equation and I will not be voting for people who want to ban me from driving my ICE car.

[Potter]

I did notice in the UK that car parks have more EV charging points.
I only noticed them because they were empty and the rest of the car park was full of ICE cars, I got a bit fed up looking at them to be honest because there was never anywhere to park and those empty spaces were a waste of time.

This is pure negative nelly though innit?

No not necessarily, I'm not being negative on purpose, I'm just weighing it all up, it did make me think that it's attractive to buy one in the sense that the spaces are there for them.

I'm being nagged to sell the Defender and buy a Tesla for when we're in the UK. The family are moaning their arses off about the comfort levels in the Defender, we only use it for trips to town and the odd 125 miles trip over to see family, it's agricultural and a pain in the arse to park, so just in terms of convenience they were at me to swap and on that level it makes sense.
Plus I got reamed for going through a clean air zone in Brum, I pay a load of car tax and the insurance is high.

Considerations though, I'd have to put a bit to it, it would sit there for 40-something weeks of the year, I don't know what depreciation is like, plus will I get shafted by obsolete technology. I don't know what the Defender is worth, somewhere between 35-55k depending on ebay/autotrader prices and they seem to be only going up - so it's the perfect car to own if it's not being used much, the value is increasing.

From a purely financial perspective over time, I think I'd regret it. I suppose I'm not your average bloke but I rarely meet anyone that says buying an EV is a sound financial decision.

[Yorick]

Just rent a car for the time you're in UK.

[Mr. Dazzle]

There are massive numbers of people without garages or even driveways (I am one) for whom a fully electric car is as much use as a chocolate teapot.

There are two people on my street who leave Nissan Leaf EVs parked outside their house on the street every night, not on charge. I have no idea where they charge them, but it ain't at home. They've had them a couple of years now, so it can't be that much of a ball ache...

Are they representative of the whole country? No of course not, but the whole "you need your own off road parking" argument is demonstrably not true in their case.

It also doesn't really matter if you vote for the EV banning party of not. If you can't buy an ICE car cause there are none on sale its all a bit irrelevant innit?

Edit: Oh BTW, the whole focus of the OEMs now is shifting to "EV pull" rather than "EV push". At the moment you buy an EV cause you're pushed into it by grants or whatever, those are the sorts of cars on sale now. The whole industry trend is now aiming towards making EVs people will be pulled toward cause they prefer it. The day is coming, probably closer than you think, when brum brum noises will mark your car out as inferior.

[MrLongbeard]

when brum brum noises will mark your car out as inferior.

But potato potato will still be cock of the roost

[Mr. Dazzle]

when brum brum noises will mark your car out as inferior.

But potato potato will still be cock of the roost

Well yeah thats the other option....grip onto the past so tightly it becomes your USP.

[Horse]

That's the other thing I was saying, it would make a lot of sense (for a company) if retrofits were simple and cost effective.
If the motors and batteries were easily changeable then it's sort of future proof, the car will still need to be basically car shaped and made of something durable and everything else including software can be upgraded.

So if Tesla sold their new cars with an upgrade solution included in a warranty, a bit like the Porsche warranty but it would cover new technology, then that might mean less fear over being left with an old technology car. For example, it wouldn't happen because of their sales strategy, but if Apple guaranteed that for ten years any new technology could be retrofitted inside your old iphone then we'd all probably be on iphone 3's or something.

Apple is an odd comparison, having been caught deliberately throttling older phones during updates!

How often have you heard products described as 'future proofed'? One of the more ridiculous marketing slogans.

For car manufacturers, where's the benefit? Even if they did offer an upgrade/retrofit service, it couldn't be either free or limitless (whether in time or technology).

And, one for Mr D: is it a reasonable guess that it wouldn't be 'just' changing the battery, the likelihood is that the entire charging system would need replacing too?

[Mr. Dazzle]

Yeah. To charge quickly you've gotta dump loads of juice in right?

If a 50kWh battery can charge in 5 mins you must be dumping >600kW into it. That's gonna set a Tesla charging system on fire

Its something like trying run a muscle car V8 with the carb off a Vespa.

[Horse]

Yeah. To charge quickly you've gotta dump loads of juice in right?

If a 50kWh battery can charge in 5 mins you must be dumping >600kW into it. That's gonna set a Tesla charging system on fire

Its something like trying run a muscle car V8 with the carb off a Vespa.

And, again presumably, the same system for taking power out the battery wouldn't be the same either? Would even an old-tech motor be suitable?

[Mr. Dazzle]

Its gonna be different from car to car. IIRC the Porsche Taycan can already support 800kW charging with "normal" batteries, despite the fact there are very very few 800kW charge points.

600kW charging sounds like a lot (it is!) but you can buy an electric car with 700kW worth of motor (about 1000bhp) so obviously it can discharge the motor that fast and the wires can hack it.

I think the bigger issue is just how integrated the batteries are into the car, they're built well in there and changing them is about as economical as re engining an ICE car.

[Mussels]

Energy density and discharge rate are linked so in theory a low powered car can have higher capacity batteries for the space taken but will obviously take longer to charge, there's a sweet spot in there somewhere but it can't be all things to all people.

[Potter]

Edit: Oh BTW, the whole focus of the OEMs now is shifting to "EV pull" rather than "EV push". At the moment you buy an EV cause you're pushed into it by grants or whatever, those are the sorts of cars on sale now. The whole industry trend is now aiming towards making EVs people will be pulled toward cause they prefer it. The day is coming, probably closer than you think, when brum brum noises will mark your car out as inferior.

A bloke I work with has a Tesla and he said he couldn't go back to an ICE car now, but I think that's one of those things that people say, like when you get a Macbook and you say you couldn't go back to a normal PC.

To get to a point where people are pulled to EVs because they prefer them the industry will have to do more than it's doing now, IME most people just aren't that attached to their vehicles, they probably don't care much what propels them as long as they are convenient, reliable and make economic sense.
My guess would be that the big step change to EVs is when they can drive themselves because then it's compelling, until then you're only changing what's under the bonnet and that will probably only ever be EV push, simply by the sales/infrastructure changing and people having to change.

[Couchy]

As I’m firmly in the EV world with my business I should be a huge fan of them. I could afford one but it’s still cheaper to run a diesel and far easier to use with zero planning needed for any journey. But for those that are less fortunate they can buy a £4K car that’ll do 600 miles on a tank of diesel, I can’t ever see a day they’ll be able to buy a £4K electric car with decent range however no one really cares about them.

I’ll get an EV in the next few years but at the moment I can’t be bothered to run one and have to think about range and charging, luckily others can , but a big stumbling block now is the price of electric and that has to change

[Horse]

but a big stumbling block now is the price of electric and that has to change

A big tumbling block (swidt?) is falling revenues gor the government from tax on petrol and diesel.

There's loads of suggestions about how the shortfall might be made up but, whatever whichever, it's a fair guess that, in a few years, any cost per mile comparisons now will be irrelevant.

[Cousin Jack]

As I’m firmly in the EV world with my business I should be a huge fan of them. I could afford one but it’s still cheaper to run a diesel and far easier to use with zero planning needed for any journey. But for those that are less fortunate they can buy a £4K car that’ll do 600 miles on a tank of diesel, I can’t ever see a day they’ll be able to buy a £4K electric car with decent range however no one really cares about them.

I’ll get an EV in the next few years but at the moment I can’t be bothered to run one and have to think about range and charging, luckily others can , but a big stumbling block now is the price of electric and that has to change

No one cared about the people who wanted Brexit - until they started voting! There are an awful lot of people very reliant on £4k cars.