Energy bills

[Ant]

Worcester Greenstar 8000 35kw combi.
Three full bathrooms, four bedrooms, a couple of living rooms, big kitchen, dining room, snug, large hallway, lots of rads and a two-story granny flat with about as much living space as an average terraced house, all on the same system.

"The 35kW output rating makes this unit perfectly suitable for larger homes with a high demand for heating with up to 20 radiators. It can meet a high demand for hot water as well as homes with two or more bathrooms."

Dunno, it's what they recommended and I cba to do any calcs, I presume their rule of thumb is good enough.

I've only just realised, it's a combi, so that'll be why it's so powerful, for water heating. I have a cylinder, so can get away with a less powerful boiler.

[Ant]

I'm still wondering how we ended up paying twice as much for our energy than people in France.
Yay, Go Privatisation...

Lol, still fighting Thatcher

Got no answer?
I'm still wondering why a country with its own natural gas, huge renewables, and a fair bit of nuclear has the highest energy prices in Europe while France pays about half what we do for energy.

French government subsidies the energy prices quite heavily, the upside is they pay more tax.

In this country if you choose to use nothing, you still don't have to pay for someone else's.

[Ant]

The 35 kw rating will be when it's in hot water mode. In heating mode most combis are up to 24kw, they have a modulating output usually about 8 or 9 to 1. Min would be about 4.5 kw.
BG are ok at what they do but are very expensive in comparison to independent installers.
An Ideal Vogue 40kw max with a 12yr warranty is a good option. The 12yr warranty could save you a lot in contract maintenance fees and be substantially cheaper.
If you wanted a fix on your boiler its probably the expansion vessel has lost its charge.
Would you happen to be in S.Wales?

I've had to do an expansion vessel, but I did it myself.

[Count Steer]

Worcester Greenstar 8000 35kw combi.
Three full bathrooms, four bedrooms, a couple of living rooms, big kitchen, dining room, snug, large hallway, lots of rads and a two-story granny flat with about as much living space as an average terraced house, all on the same system.

"The 35kW output rating makes this unit perfectly suitable for larger homes with a high demand for heating with up to 20 radiators. It can meet a high demand for hot water as well as homes with two or more bathrooms."

Dunno, it's what they recommended and I cba to do any calcs, I presume their rule of thumb is good enough.

I've only just realised, it's a combi, so that'll be why it's so powerful, for water heating. I have a cylinder, so can get away with a less powerful boiler.

The Greenstar 8000 that's been specced is rated at 35kW max output for the CH side. The hot water max output will be 40-50kW depending on the exact model.

[KungFooBob]

I got an email from Octopus this morning....

Energy prices from January and what they mean for you

Dear KFB,

The Government recently announced some changes to the Energy Price Guarantee: the scheme
put in place from October to cap energy prices in the crisis (although your bill will still vary
based on how much you use).

The first change was a surprise: some Energy Price Guarantee rates are changing in January,
because the Energy Price Guarantee is tied – imperfectly – to the Ofgem Price Cap.
The majority of changes are reasonably small, and where we can, we’re absorbing rises and
passing on reductions.

Although the changes are small, some of your prices will drop in January.
There’s a personalised breakdown of the change in this letter.

Our commitment to stand by our customers throughout the crisis is unchanged. You’ll
continue to receive your Octopus discounted standing charges – lower than any other large
supplier – throughout the next price cap period.

If you’re struggling with energy bills, please let us know via the contact details on this
document. We’ll review your situation and help you find financial support you’re entitled to.
Yours sincerely,

Greg, James, Stuart, Rebecca, Jon, Tara, Mario & Pete
The Octopus Energy leadership team

It then goes on to break down next years charges.

Including the Gov payment they think my gas will stay exactly the same and my leccy will go down... 27p.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Yeah it's been on the news and everything!

They're calling it a crisis.

[Kneerly Down]

I've had to do an expansion vessel, but I did it myself.

I had an expansion vessel fail in a combi boiler in the rented house.
It was such a faff to get at the boiler mounted one I just plumbed in a separate one next to the boiler.
£20 and 20 minutes.

[Bowman]

Worcester Greenstar 8000 35kw combi.
Three full bathrooms, four bedrooms, a couple of living rooms, big kitchen, dining room, snug, large hallway, lots of rads and a two-story granny flat with about as much living space as an average terraced house, all on the same system.

"The 35kW output rating makes this unit perfectly suitable for larger homes with a high demand for heating with up to 20 radiators. It can meet a high demand for hot water as well as homes with two or more bathrooms."

Dunno, it's what they recommended and I cba to do any calcs, I presume their rule of thumb is good enough.

I've only just realised, it's a combi, so that'll be why it's so powerful, for water heating. I have a cylinder, so can get away with a less powerful boiler.

The Greenstar 8000 that's been specced is rated at 35kW max output for the CH side. The hot water max output will be 40-50kW depending on the exact model.

They produce different models from 30 to 50kw. Usually they're named by the hot water output. The 40kw hot water output model is called the 8000 40kw and so on. They're all 35 kW to the heating though which is pretty high and perfect for the bigger house.

[Bowman]

I've had to do an expansion vessel, but I did it myself.

I had an expansion vessel fail in a combi boiler in the rented house.
It was such a faff to get at the boiler mounted one I just plumbed in a separate one next to the boiler.
£20 and 20 minutes.

That's definitely the way forward with a lot of boilers. Especially the ones that have to come off the wall to change it.

[Ant]

I've had to do an expansion vessel, but I did it myself.

I had an expansion vessel fail in a combi boiler in the rented house.
It was such a faff to get at the boiler mounted one I just plumbed in a separate one next to the boiler.
£20 and 20 minutes.

Yep, best way to do it. My vessel and filling loop are nowhere near the boiler.

[Ant]

French government subsidies the energy prices quite heavily, the upside is they pay more tax.

In this country if you choose to use nothing, you still don't have to pay for someone else's.

There are details in between that though, the subsidy is done at the expense (or the reduction of) maintenance, capital projects and investment. The French energy system has some issues, their assets are in a poor state in some cases and they're over extended financially on some of their ambitions, but assets are still better than no assets. And if you're a miserable old bugger sat in front of a three bar fire then what do you care, you're probably only bothered about your bill every quarter and if it's half what they're paying over the border then you'll be glad of it.

And on the flip side the UK are still reaming you for tax, but they spunk it on other stuff instead, it's not like you can turn your fire down to one bar and they'll be a bit more sensible with your tax money and invest in better infrastructure.

With the foothold that EDF have in this country, in France, the source cost is also cheaper in the first place before the subsidies.

There is an interesting video/small documentary somewhere on youtube or somewhere which goes into some detail about it.

But it's more complicated than Thatcher and Boris stole my future and Corbyn would have made it all ok - that's an argument I just can't be arsed having.

Yep, that's best left to the deranged, bitter extremists whos lives would be lacking whoever they looked to in order to spoon feed them better choices in life.

[Ant]

I thought it was illegal to take the cover off a boiler if you don't have the right ticket?
I did all my own maintenance on the old one, but I was always a bit twitchy about it.

I remember years ago a bloke (and the company) getting in big trouble when the HSE turned up on site and he was working on a boiler he didn't have the right ticket for. And if it ever went bang and you didn't have a ticket then jail would be looming.

Don't know about illegal, unless you're working specifically on the gas side.

But, if it's illegal to work on the water side, then I'll be doing illegal things then as I'm not paying someone to do something which I can do, but to a far lesser standard.

[Kneerly Down]

I thought it was illegal to take the cover off a boiler if you don't have the right ticket?

Another reason to solve the issue (failed expansion vessel) without having to take the cover off the boiler.
I wouldn't mess with any of the gas elements of the boiler, but have changed failed water-side components and the odd electrical component.

When the expansion vessel went I was told "it'll realistically be cheaper to get a new boiler fitted", hence the £20 and 20 mins alternative, that is still working just fine 5 years on.

[Bowman]

I thought it was illegal to take the cover off a boiler if you don't have the right ticket?
I did all my own maintenance on the old one, but I was always a bit twitchy about it.

I remember years ago a bloke (and the company) getting in big trouble when the HSE turned up on site and he was working on a boiler he didn't have the right ticket for. And if it ever went bang and you didn't have a ticket then jail would be looming.

Don't know about illegal, unless you're working specifically on the gas side.

But, if it's illegal to work on the water side, then I'll be doing illegal things then as I'm not paying someone to do something which I can do, but to a far lesser standard.

And there's the nub of it. Even taking the case off a lot of balanced flued boilers is classed as working on the gas side. The case forms an important part of the sealing to the room andvis classed as gas work.
No-one is doubting anyone's technical ability but if something happens then the hse and insurance companies will not be impressed.

[Ant]

I thought it was illegal to take the cover off a boiler if you don't have the right ticket?
I did all my own maintenance on the old one, but I was always a bit twitchy about it.

I remember years ago a bloke (and the company) getting in big trouble when the HSE turned up on site and he was working on a boiler he didn't have the right ticket for. And if it ever went bang and you didn't have a ticket then jail would be looming.

Don't know about illegal, unless you're working specifically on the gas side.

But, if it's illegal to work on the water side, then I'll be doing illegal things then as I'm not paying someone to do something which I can do, but to a far lesser standard.

And there's the nub of it. Even taking the case off a lot of balanced flued boilers is classed as working on the gas side. The case forms an important part of the sealing to the room andvis classed as gas work.
No-one is doubting anyone's technical ability but if something happens then the hse and insurance companies will not be impressed.

No, the case/cover we are referring to is the big white cover which covers the lot, which isn't sealed.

The sealed chamber inside isn't what we're touching, the sealed chamber isn't touched when working on the water side unless you were replacing a heat exchanger.

[Bowman]

Don't know about illegal, unless you're working specifically on the gas side.

But, if it's illegal to work on the water side, then I'll be doing illegal things then as I'm not paying someone to do something which I can do, but to a far lesser standard.

I feel the same way, but even if it's not your fault and it goes bang, and you were the last one working on it, then you're in trouble.
I did the same as you, but as I said I was always twitchy about it and now I'd rather just pay someone with the right ticket, IME the HSE don't mess about with this stuff and they come down hard.

Whenever there's an incident be it co, gas leak, or fire/explosion the last person to work on it is always in the biggest trouble even if they didn't fit it. It the way the system works to encourage responsibility. If I was the cause of the incident I'd actually be in more trouble than a DIY guy. I'm classed as a competent person so it would be put down to negligence rather than ignorance.

[Bowman]

Don't know about illegal, unless you're working specifically on the gas side.

But, if it's illegal to work on the water side, then I'll be doing illegal things then as I'm not paying someone to do something which I can do, but to a far lesser standard.

And there's the nub of it. Even taking the case off a lot of balanced flued boilers is classed as working on the gas side. The case forms an important part of the sealing to the room andvis classed as gas work.
No-one is doubting anyone's technical ability but if something happens then the hse and insurance companies will not be impressed.

No, the case/cover we are referring to is the big white cover which covers the lot, which isn't sealed.

The sealed chamber inside isn't what we're touching, the sealed chamber isn't touched when working on the water side unless you were replacing a heat exchanger.

Yes. That big white cover on a lot of boilers is the case seal. Ideal, Worcester and Vailant are all like this. Not all boilers are the same. If your gonna mess with boilers you really should be aware of this.

[Ant]

And there's the nub of it. Even taking the case off a lot of balanced flued boilers is classed as working on the gas side. The case forms an important part of the sealing to the room andvis classed as gas work.
No-one is doubting anyone's technical ability but if something happens then the hse and insurance companies will not be impressed.

No, the case/cover we are referring to is the big white cover which covers the lot, which isn't sealed.

The sealed chamber inside isn't what we're touching, the sealed chamber isn't touched when working on the water side unless you were replacing a heat exchanger.

Yes. That big white cover on a lot of boilers is the case seal. Ideal, Worcester and Vailant are all like this. Not all boilers are the same. If your gonna mess with boilers you really should be aware of this.

So the big white cover to get to the electrics and the expansion vessel is the seal? So you're saying that the gas and flue are all mixed in with the electrics? Interesting. Not seen that in any boiler I have been inside.

[Ant]

So the big white cover to get to the electrics and the expansion vessel is the seal? So you're saying that the gas and flue are all mixed in with the electrics? Interesting. Not seen that in any boiler I have been inside.

There will be a separate combustion chamber and flue, etc, but the big white cover gives you access to the electrics, ignition unit, and sometimes the fan. If, for example, you mess about and bypass the fan safeties you could cause a big problem, so that's why you'll get in trouble taking the case off if you don't have the right ticket.

Exactly - that's how it's always been, completely separately sealed.

[Bowman]

No, the case/cover we are referring to is the big white cover which covers the lot, which isn't sealed.

The sealed chamber inside isn't what we're touching, the sealed chamber isn't touched when working on the water side unless you were replacing a heat exchanger.

Yes. That big white cover on a lot of boilers is the case seal. Ideal, Worcester and Vailant are all like this. Not all boilers are the same. If your gonna mess with boilers you really should be aware of this.

So the big white cover to get to the electrics and the expansion vessel is the seal? So you're saying that the gas and flue are all mixed in with the electrics? Interesting. Not seen that in any boiler I have been inside.

Yes on the majority of new boilers it's the seal. Yes the gas and flue are in the same compartment as the electrics. There's no reason for them not to be. And on condensing boilers even ones with a separate combustion chamber they are still "gas" rated. An example would be if the hose was disturbed on the inlet of the condensate trap then products of combustion would be straight into the room.