EICMA

[Mr. Dazzle]

Electric cars have to make a noise by law now, since 2019 I think it is. Below about 15mph they all have various versions of spaceship whirr don't they? It's completely artificial, done with speakers. Above 15mph the tyres become the loudest thing anyway.

Having walked around central London a fair bit I'm not convinced by any "loud pipes save lives" argument, despite this ^^^^. In London there is so much noise going on that you don't notice the one loud engine among the 57 others you can hear, or if you do you wouldn't clock immediately which way it's coming from. Same with loud vehicles in traffic, you never hear them until after they've gone past, by which point it's moot.

The fake noise thing exists for car parks, residential streets and places like that. Once a vehicle is above a brisk walk other bits of it are noisier anyway.

[Bustaspoke]

With the growth of quieter bikes and cars, I wonder if there'll be a "Darwinistic" alteration in the behaviour of pedestrians:

As an old fart I get the impression that over the years society has gone so risk averse that there'll be carnage.I mean kids can't even walk down the street without being escorted by some Hi Viz wearing assistants,how are they going to cope when they're let out on their own

[Taipan]

But, with so many near misses with London's cyclists and pedestrians, its the quietness of them, of all things, thats putting me off!

Lower button. You probably have something similar on your bike

Everyone knows you cant reach them during an emergency stop and shout instead!

[Tarmacsurfer]

My bet would be Triumph didn't go anywhere with the TE-1 simply 'cause it'd be too expensive to turn it into a road vehicle. Too expensive a project, and targeting an extremely conservative market.

Regarding not banning ICE motorcycles in the same way as cars - I can't see that happening for purely political/image reasons. If you say ICE cars aren't allowed for environmental reasons how can you possible say, with a straight face, that a vehicle used entirely for leisure where essentially every journey is unnecessary is allowed to still be ICE?

You might be right about the TE-1
Generally for big bikes the cost per kW doesn't make sense yet. Bear in mind that you have far more packaging constraints than a car and the CoG is a big factor. So you need high energy density in a small package.

I've ridden a few big EV bikes and I'd say (with the exception of TE-1) they have a fantastic power train but handling wasn't great due to weight and distribution.
I've also put a few die-hard petrol heads on an EV bike and genuinely no one has come off them and been disappointed.

[Mr. Dazzle]

The TE-1 used a WAE battery pack did it not? IIRC it's also a composite battery case, so is that structural too? I'm guessing it's all Formula E battery tech (hence the WAE connection) and therefore v. cheap

We had enquiries from one of the big superbike names about using our motors, they can't afford it TBF they'd probably be able to afford it at the prices we're making/selling by the end of next year, but our parent will want to maintain exclusivity with that tech for a while.

[Tarmacsurfer]

TE-1 was a semi structural composite pack. The CoG was exactly the same as the Speed Triple and the weight the same as a fully fuelled Triple.
You can tell I'm still gutted it wasn't built

Some of the motors are uber trick. High speed and high switching time isn't cheap though.

[Mr. Dazzle]

High speed and high switching time isn't cheap though.

Half a million g They don't half err....motor

The ones integral powertrain make are nearly as good as ours I can say that as a former employee

[The Spin Doctor]

Electric cars have to make a noise by law now, since 2019 I think it is. Below about 15mph they all have various versions of spaceship whirr don't they? It's completely artificial, done with speakers. Above 15mph the tyres become the loudest thing anyway.

I think I mentioned that this time last year (it was near Guy Fawkes) I had just parked the car, heard the electric car coming from my left...

...and almost walked out in front of the ICE car coming from my right - it was far quieter.

[The Spin Doctor]

Latest electric bike from Yadea...

10-minute to 80% Automotive DC Fast Charging
40kW motor
570 N·m torque
0-100 km/h in 4.9 seconds
top speed of 160 km/h

No word on range, mind.

Yadea is the largest two-wheel electric vehicle producer in the world
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yadea#:~: ... 0as%20well.

https://thepack.news/yadea-unveils-kemp ... icma-2023/

[Mr. Dazzle]

My ICE car can/does completely kill the engine and drop in nuetral at any speed. It'll happily roll down from 100 to 0 without the engine on, which means it's quite possible to be rolling through a town centre off the pedal with the engine off. Pretty common occurrence actually.

Doesn't have to make a fake noise.

[The Spin Doctor]

My ICE car can/does completely kill the engine and drop in nuetral at any speed. It'll happily roll down from 100 to 0 without the engine on, which means it's quite possible to be rolling through a town centre off the pedal with the engine off. Pretty common occurrence actually.

Doesn't have to make a fake noise.

The engine was running on the ICE... I could JUST hear it above the swish of the tyres, and there was steam coming out the exhaust... but shockingly quiet!

[westers151]

I said that the e-bike proposition as it stands doesn't meet my requirements, and tried to explain why that is so. I'm still interested in ICE bikes and am following the Yamaha CP3 variants with some interest, as they look pretty much ideal for me. Then you pop up and effectively tell me not to bother as I'm not the kind of customer they're interested in. Which is why I took it personally.

So i agreed with you and you've taken it personally ? lol... errrrrrrm

As i say, i was commenting on the industry as a whole, not on YOU....

It didn't feel like agreement, it felt more like taking a pop, but I'm happy to stand corrected. Apologies for flying off the handle.

It's not taking a pop at you. We have to realise that as oldies, none of us are the target market for the future, and as such they couldn't give a flying 'uck about whether we don't like the weight/range/etc, etc.

The majority of us use bikes as a recreational toy, and nobody in poweer cares if our hobby is blitzed by the new zero emission requirements. We are a minority in transport terms, and our particular demands for bikes are a minority of a minority. We have to get used to that, unfortunately.

Most mainstream brands will probably slim their range down to a couple of sporty e bikes, and a lot of commuter e bikes, whether that's scooter, or CB500 equivalent.

Bikes will go back to being a practical form of transport.

And the winning lottery numbers for Saturday 23rd December are: 6, 8, 17, 33, 42, 56

[Whysub]

.....to get a nearly full battery recharge in as little as 10 minutes. That’s still a bit longer than a gasoline fill-up, but since most touring riders generally use a fuel-stop as a chance to stretch their legs after a few hours on a cramped bike, a 10-minute refueling window is fairly reasonable in the touring world.

So their Lightning electric bike will run for a few hours between recharges then? I ride up to France several times a year, and only stop for fuel. Rarely walk any further than from the pump to the pay kiosk, even less if I can pay at the pump. Lightning have obviously engineered a reason for you to stop for 10 minutes or more when you have to recharge.

And maybe we/they will be moaning about a lack of filling stations in the way that we now point to a lack of charging points?

There are plenty of electric charging points where I live in Spain. What there aren't are any cars to charge at them. I only ever see one point being used, and that is by the same car every time. And seeing how many people live in flats here (I live in an area that see's few holiday home owners), it seems the Spanish are just not buying them around here.

I was very pro eBikes, and looking forward to getting one at some point, but much less so now. I think the bigger zeros would easily have enough range for my commute, so that side of things is sorted. But, with so many near misses with London's cyclists and pedestrians, its the quietness of them, of all things, thats putting me off!

I had the Zero DSR as a loan bike for a week. I think the range was stated to be 133 miles or so. After my first 60 mile commute into work (A120, M11, A406, A13 and The Highway, all dual carriageways) the battery was down to 10%. Constant speed does no good for range, probably do less in winter.

Only did one return commute on it, as work got the hump when they found I was using their electricity to charge it.

But I have owned an EV when I was living in the UK. I had a Lifan electric moped scooter for a while, 30mph top speed, but I had the controller tweaked to up that to 40 mph. Was OK for the 13 mile round trip to the supermarket, but that was an infrequent trip. Nothing wrong with it if you have a short daily commute to work, but I didn't and so sold it. Oh yes, the cost of insurance for it was wasn't the same as an ICE moped either!

[mangocrazy]

.....to get a nearly full battery recharge in as little as 10 minutes. That’s still a bit longer than a gasoline fill-up, but since most touring riders generally use a fuel-stop as a chance to stretch their legs after a few hours on a cramped bike, a 10-minute refueling window is fairly reasonable in the touring world.

So their Lightning electric bike will run for a few hours between recharges then? I ride up to France several times a year, and only stop for fuel. Rarely walk any further than from the pump to the pay kiosk, even less if I can pay at the pump. Lightning have obviously engineered a reason for you to stop for 10 minutes or more when you have to recharge.

I'd take anything Lightning state with an industrial sized pinch of salt. Their products can best be described as vapourware.

[Taipan]

Electric cars have to make a noise by law now, since 2019 I think it is. Below about 15mph they all have various versions of spaceship whirr don't they? It's completely artificial, done with speakers. Above 15mph the tyres become the loudest thing anyway.

Having walked around central London a fair bit I'm not convinced by any "loud pipes save lives" argument, despite this ^^^^. In London there is so much noise going on that you don't notice the one loud engine among the 57 others you can hear, or if you do you wouldn't clock immediately which way it's coming from. Same with loud vehicles in traffic, you never hear them until after they've gone past, by which point it's moot.

The fake noise thing exists for car parks, residential streets and places like that. Once a vehicle is above a brisk walk other bits of it are noisier anyway.

I ride in London most weekdays and have done for 30 years. Having an audible warning such as a louder bike 100% helps with myopic peds and cyclists. I had a bout zero near misses when I had my Harley! It stands to reason with sound being omnidirectional. Anyway, I still want a ebike such as a zero but its enough of an issue to make me think about it. The price of a fully loaded one kills it dead though!

[Mr. Dazzle]

So far as I can see the Lightning bike claims are based on it having silicon anode batteries (rather than the graphite anode found in virtually all EVs)

Silicon anode batteries are indeed a big leap in performance. On paper they can deliver 10 times the power density of the present graphite state of the art...so an EV bike which could do 1000 miles on a charge. Or a 100 mile battery the size/weight of a normal car battery. The speed at which you can charge them in similarly improved.

As always, the sticky point is actually bringing them to market

Mercedes are doing it with the G-Wagon AFAIK and one of their next bespoke EV platforms coming mid 2020s will have a high Silicon content (you don't have to be 100% Silicon or Graphite, you can blend). Tesla have been slowly ramping up the silicon content in their batteries too.

I suspect Lightning are doing the classic start up disrupter thing and trying to get there first.

[mangocrazy]

I suspect Lightning are doing the classic start up disrupter thing and trying to get there first.

That's being charitable... They are also (mainly?) looking for investors/venture capital but don't appear to have anything to actually sell at present.

[Horse]

don't appear to have anything to actually sell at present.

https://lightningmotorcycle.com/product/lightning-pin/

[The Spin Doctor]

Lightning have obviously engineered a reason for you to stop for 10 minutes or more when you have to recharge.

???

I had the Zero DSR as a loan bike for a week. I think the range was stated to be 133 miles or so. After my first 60 mile commute into work (A120, M11, A406, A13 and The Highway, all dual carriageways) the battery was down to 10%.

But WHAT range were you quoted? There are several different cycles which they have to be tested to. From memory, city, highway and combined.

The current DSR has - according to the Zero website - a CITY range of 155 miles but that drops to 100 miles when used for high speed commuting. I suspect those figures also represent the uprated battery which has around 10% more capacity. So if that was an older machine, knock off 10%.

Lots of stop/start won't help, particularly if you use the brakes hard rather than allow regen to recover energy.

[Dodgy69]

Electric cars have to make a noise by law now, since 2019 I think it is. Below about 15mph they all have various versions of spaceship whirr don't they? It's completely artificial, done with speakers. Above 15mph the tyres become the loudest thing anyway.

Having walked around central London a fair bit I'm not convinced by any "loud pipes save lives" argument, despite this ^^^^. In London there is so much noise going on that you don't notice the one loud engine among the 57 others you can hear, or if you do you wouldn't clock immediately which way it's coming from. Same with loud vehicles in traffic, you never hear them until after they've gone past, by which point it's moot.

The fake noise thing exists for car parks, residential streets and places like that. Once a vehicle is above a brisk walk other bits of it are noisier anyway.

I ride in London most weekdays and have done for 30 years. Having an audible warning such as a louder bike 100% helps with myopic peds and cyclists. I had a bout zero near misses when I had my Harley! It stands to reason with sound being omnidirectional. Anyway, I still want a ebike such as a zero but its enough of an issue to make me think about it. The price of a fully loaded one kills it dead though!

Pedestrians hear noisey bikes, always useful in town centre's, if and when.