the Game changer bikes

[KungFooBob]

The RC30 won the odd time at the TT

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

What about the V-MAX, it was in a class of one for many years... until stuff like the V-Rod and Diavel came along.

Another interesting bike, but it's part of a class of bikes that are popular in the USA, Kawasaki made ZL1000 Eliminators, Honda had the V65 Magna, I'm not sure if there was a Suzuki.

Kawasaki made loads of these type bikes, I think they were called Spectre before Eliminator, there's a ZN1100 that has a Unitrak 1100 engine in a chassis that looks like a Raleigh Chopper

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

The RC30 won the odd time at the TT

I thought that was the RVF750 rather than the RC30 VFR750R, the RVF is a lot higher spec, I doubt if it shares much with the RC.

But I'm probably wrong, and I don't know anyone to ask (Yamaha and Suzuki I know who to ask and they're a lot more open with info than Honda, but everyone was cheating in the 80s and 90s)

[Yorick]

Most of these bikes were negligible.
Some advanced things 1 or 2 %

Apart from stuff like RC30 etc, it was just evolution

The RC30 is a bit of an oddity, standard they're not that special, they need all of the race parts to make them fantastic (OW01s are also like this) I'm probably wrong, but I don't remember the RC30 winning that much, Fred Merkel won the first year of WSB on one but I think after that the rules were changed so Ducati would win.

I was helping and spannering in the BSB paddock.
If you didn't buy the 10 grand carbs, you were wasted.

That bike truly did raise the bar.

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

I was helping and spannering in the BSB paddock.
If you didn't buy the 10 grand carbs, you were wasted.

That bike truly did raise the bar.

OW01s were like that, if you didn't have the exhaust that cost as much as a Toyota Corrolla you might as well not have bothered turning up (or you could fit 1000 EXUP engine internals and get the same power for a lot less cost, as a certain large person from Northampton was rumoured to have done)

[The Spin Doctor]

Isn't the Hornet Honda's version of a 600 Bandit

Ish... but then the GSX600F 'donor bike' wasn't nearly so much of a cutting edge sports bike as the CBR which the Hornet engine was derived from.

But TBH I wouldn't call either of them game-changers. Successful though they both were, they were just recycling an inexpensive four cylinder middleweight theme.

[The Spin Doctor]

Most of these bikes were negligible.
Some advanced things 1 or 2 %

Apart from stuff like RC30 etc, it was just evolution

The RC30 is a bit of an oddity, standard they're not that special, they need all of the race parts to make them fantastic (OW01s are also like this) I'm probably wrong, but I don't remember the RC30 winning that much, Fred Merkel won the first year of WSB on one but I think after that the rules were changed so Ducati would win.

The RC30 / RC45 cleaned up in the World Endurance championship from 88 to about 97 and they weren't exactly unsuccessful at the TT or Macau. I'd have to dig into the specific race results to give you accurate stats but I think they did win a fair number of races in that time. And whilst the Ducatis may have been starting to win at WSB, they were too fragile to last much beyond a couple of hours at the endurance events.

[Bigjawa]

Yeah the Hornet 250 was the unobtainable dream bike to the 33bhp restricted me. You just never saw any for sale!

The 250 IL4s never lasted long, people loved the 20k redlines so they got thrashed everywhere, I saw a CBR250RR that totally grenaded the engine. It was a total mess.

Tiepin might have been joking, but the 'half a car engine' NC7x0 bikes were a departure from the norm, in the chase for MPG/Reliability/cheap servicing, etc...

Going back to bikes as transport with lowly tuned engines is a bit of a retrograde step? I'd prefer to see more forced induction small engines making big power.

What about the V-MAX, it was in a class of one for many years... until stuff like the V-Rod and Diavel came along.

Shaft drive V4 cruiser? Honda did that before the VMAX with the VF750S. Until they blew up

[Bigjawa]

Isn't the Hornet Honda's version of a 600 Bandit

Ish... but then the GSX600F 'donor bike' wasn't nearly so much of a cutting edge sports bike as the CBR which the Hornet engine was derived from.

But TBH I wouldn't call either of them game-changers. Successful though they both were, they were just recycling an inexpensive four cylinder middleweight theme.

Bandit was the last great bike for home modification, it arrived when the breakers were full of crashed GSXRs and being Suzuki, things like USD front ends were plug and play, steel frame was easy to modify for different tails and TTS put a big bore from a GSXR750 in one and made it a weapon. They were a great blank canvas.

[Rockburner]

Tiepin might have been joking, but the 'half a car engine' NC7x0 bikes were a departure from the norm, in the chase for MPG/Reliability/cheap servicing, etc...

Going back to bikes as transport with lowly tuned engines is a bit of a retrograde step? I'd prefer to see more forced induction small engines making big power.

Maybe now is the time.... back when the CX650Turbo et al were released the forced induction was always applied to shitty commuters with budget suspension, rather than building the vehicle with the turbo (or super) being considered right from the start (which, you'd hope, would lead to better frames and suspension).

[Bigjawa]

Maybe now is the time.... back when the CX650Turbo et al were released the forced induction was always applied to shitty commuters with budget suspension, rather than building the vehicle with the turbo (or super) being considered right from the start (which, you'd hope, would lead to better frames and suspension).

Yup, modern engine management means that turbo lag and boost pressures can all be controlled perfectly, providing the actual plumbing can be sorted, it's a no brainer.

[Mr. Dazzle]

It'd a lot of bits to package though and it's gonna be expensive. Cars can justify it 'cause you sell loads, put the same engine in lots of vehicles and you also get hit with quite big penalties for dirtier vehicles. The expense of developing these high performance small turbo engines is worth it. I wonder if there's enough money in bikes to bother before EVs come along.

[The Spin Doctor]

Bandit was the last great bike for home modification, it arrived when the breakers were full of crashed GSXRs and being Suzuki, things like USD front ends were plug and play, steel frame was easy to modify for different tails and TTS put a big bore from a GSXR750 in one and made it a weapon. They were a great blank canvas.

It was - like the 600 Monster - a bit of a parts-bin special, and none the worse for it. Some of the customs were nice... a few were hideous. There was a trend for angled-up rear seats for some bizarre reason (stunting?). A mate got that for free when he was rear-ended braking to avoid hitting a dog.

Unfortunately, in the eyes of the punters, 80-odd hp shrank as the manufacturers started supersizing their bikes and everyone got obsessed with numbers instead of what you could do with the bike itself. People are really dismissive of bikes like this now - only the other day I heard someone say "you'll get bored with it". Hmm.

[The Spin Doctor]

Suzuki are supposedly working on a small displacement turbo or supercharged engine - can't remember which... it's been talked about for several yers but has all gone a bit quiet.

[Skub]

It'd a lot of bits to package though and it's gonna be expensive. Cars can justify it 'cause you sell loads, put the same engine in lots of vehicles and you also get hit with quite big penalties for dirtier vehicles. The expense of developing these high performance small turbo engines is worth it. I wonder if there's enough money in bikes to bother before EVs come along.

I suppose it all depends on how much of an overlap there is between the effective end of the ICE and the rise to dominance of EVs.

Motorcycles in particular will probably hang onto the ICE for a fair while longer than cars,so maybe there will be a little more development time left.

[Druid]

What about the V-MAX, it was in a class of one for many years... until stuff like the V-Rod and Diavel came along.

Shaft drive V4 cruiser? Honda did that before the VMAX with the VF750S. Until they blew up

The 750S was ok, it was the 750F that had all the problems with the cams. Unfortunately for Honda all the first gen V4s got tarred with the same brush even though it was only the VF750F that had problems.

Anyway, game changers - I'm only going back in my lifetime, that's more than far enough tbh. I'm considering bikes that have changed mainstream bike development significantly, and any references to improvements in performance, handling and braking are relative to contemporary levels

Honda Super Cub - cheap reliable transport for the masses. Over 100 million produced
Honda CB72 - reliable, decent performance, high spec in a small capacity bike. OHC, electric starter, rev counter, indicators.
Honda CB750 - IL 4 cylinders, OHC, electric starter, disc brake, reliable, oil tight
Kawasaki Z1 - CB750 on steroids. Bigger engine, DOHC, more power. The start of Japan's obsession with power and speed which continued into the 1980s
BMW R80 GS - the forerunner of the adventure bike. Slow starter but are now hugely popular.
Suzuki GSX-R 750 - light weight, alloy frame
Kawasaki GPZ 600 - 1000cc performance in a light, good handling frame. Started the 600 class which was to be so important for the following 20 years
Kawasaki GPZ 900 - water cooled, fully faired, good handling and a massive performance boost
Honda Fireblade - not significantly more powerful than its competitors, but lighter and more compact so it was faster and braked and handled better.
Triumph Speed Triple - changed the focus away from fully faired sports bikes ans introduced the concept of the big naked bike.

That takes us up to about 2000. The milestones since then have been fuel injection, ECUs, electronic aids like traction control, anti-wheelie, ABS but mostly it's been incremental development of existing designs rather than game changers. Educate me if you think I've overlooked anything.

[mangocrazy]

Anyway, game changers - I'm only going back in my lifetime, that's more than far enough tbh. I'm considering bikes that have changed mainstream bike development significantly, and any references to improvements in performance, handling and braking are relative to contemporary levels

Honda Super Cub - cheap reliable transport for the masses. Over 100 million produced
Honda CB72 - reliable, decent performance, high spec in a small capacity bike. OHC, electric starter, rev counter, indicators.
Honda CB750 - IL 4 cylinders, OHC, electric starter, disc brake, reliable, oil tight
Kawasaki Z1 - CB750 on steroids. Bigger engine, DOHC, more power. The start of Japan's obsession with power and speed which continued into the 1980s
BMW R80 GS - the forerunner of the adventure bike. Slow starter but are now hugely popular.
Suzuki GSX-R 750 - light weight, alloy frame
Kawasaki GPZ 600 - 1000cc performance in a light, good handling frame. Started the 600 class which was to be so important for the following 20 years
Kawasaki GPZ 900 - water cooled, fully faired, good handling and a massive performance boost
Honda Fireblade - not significantly more powerful than its competitors, but lighter and more compact so it was faster and braked and handled better.
Triumph Speed Triple - changed the focus away from fully faired sports bikes ans introduced the concept of the big naked bike.

That takes us up to about 2000. The milestones since then have been fuel injection, ECUs, electronic aids like traction control, anti-wheelie, ABS but mostly it's been incremental development of existing designs rather than game changers. Educate me if you think I've overlooked anything.

I'd agree with most of that, particularly the early stuff. Not so sure about the ST - what were the CB750 and Z1 if not big naked bikes? Prior to the mid-80s most bikes were 'naked'. You also missed out the 350LC and anything two-stroke or Italian (which are pretty big omissions in my book).

[Bigjawa]

The first Speed Triple wasn't fast, Suzuki had the massive GSX1100G out at the same time and I'm pretty sure it was quicker.

[Druid]

The LC wasn't a game changer, it was the last hurrah of the 2 stroke where Yamaha's 2 stroke engineers said "let's go out in style" The 250 in particular was responsible for much of the legislation that killed off the small capacity 2 stroke. If you're looking for 2 stroke game changers then the Yamaha YDS7 and YR5, Suzuki T250 and Kawasaki S3 really introduced the idea of a fast, light, small(ish) capacity 2 stroke that could out perform much larger capacity 4 strokes.

Italian bikes generally don't have much of an effect on mainstream motorcycling. The Ducati 750SS and 916 were iconic but didn't generally move the direction of motorcycle development their way - nobody else developed a V twin supersport bike. All the italian manufacturers have spent the last 40 years lurching from takeover to bankrupcy to merger...

Speed Triple- yes the CB750 and Z1 were big naked bikes, but most other bikes of their time were naked too. From the early 80s fairings had become more common and performance bikes in particular were expected to have a full fairing and clip ons, just like the race bikes they were emulating. The ST was the first of ther factory streetfighters, even though it was based on the least sporty of the litre sportsbikes. GSX1100G was far from a sportsbike with no fairings, it even had a shaft drive It wasn't too long before most manufacturers also offered a naked bike based (loosely) on their sportsbikes - Fazer, 900 Hornet, Z1000, Brutale, Monster, Tuono, SuperDuke...

[Rockburner]

nobody else developed a V twin supersport bike.

TL1000?
Aprilia Mille?
SV1000?
Firestorm?. Sorry, meant VTR1000SP2