revtothelimit - motorbike forum

Hmmm perhaps we ought to discuss that ...

weeksy wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:50 am Arguably they have more knowledge, information, crash impact etc than any of you or the pics, so they can base it upon years and years of experience and actually being there ? As well as seeing all the kit, the riders injuries, the impact marks on the kit...

Who does? Airbag manufacturer? Or the police?

So there's likely a LOT of information for the claims of the airbags doing their job... .you just haven't been given it.

Just to remind us all, the BBC article said:

"A motorbike police officer injured on the M25 amid climate protests was SAVED by airbags built into his clothing, his force has said."

Definition of 'save' - "to rescue or preserve from harm, danger, injury"

But:

"The officer, who had 20 years' experience, was still recovering from his injuries, the force said."

Make of that what you will.

The Spin Doctor wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 9:24 am Make of that what you will.

I am.... as are you... but we seem to be at different ends of the scale, i'm still not really getting your point though.

However i wasn't there, neither were you... i've not seen the crash, i've not seen the kit, i've not seen the injuries... but the Police have. Hence why they can potentially gauge the effects of the airbags ?

But based upon what you're saying, i don't think you're going to agree so there's not much in the way of a discussion really.

weeksy wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 9:28 am

The Spin Doctor wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 9:24 am Make of that what you will.

I am.... as are you... but we seem to be at different ends of the scale, i'm still not really getting your point though.

However i wasn't there, neither were you... i've not seen the crash, i've not seen the kit, i've not seen the injuries... but the Police have. Hence why they can potentially gauge the effects of the airbags ?

But based upon what you're saying, i don't think you're going to agree so there's not much in the way of a discussion really.

I wasn't there, you weren't there... the BBC weren't there...

We have the police statement to go on, that it 'saved' the officer... but since they don't tell us the manner of the injuries it DID prevent, it's entirely reasonable to wonder just HOW it operated to his benefit... particularly as he's still off work with the injuries it DIDN'T prevent!

The entire point is that a discussion IS valid, because we should be accepting things at face value without evidence... and if the police don't provide that evidence...

The Spin Doctor wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 9:43 am The entire point is that a discussion IS valid, because we should be accepting things at face value without evidence... and if the police don't provide that evidence...

I'm not honestly sure how it's possible to have a discussion based upon the information we have. We can certainly discuss jackets, airbags etc... but how we discuss something that we have very little information on, well, i don't see it. I'll bow out now as my point is being missed it seems.

Lutin wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 9:03 am Well, one Police rider appears to have benefited from an air-bag vest - Just Stop Oil protests: Airbags saved motorbike officer hurt on M25

A motorbike police officer injured on the M25 amid climate protests was saved by airbags built into his clothing, his force has said.

The Essex Police officer was hurt in a collision which also involved two lorries at a rolling roadblock on Wednesday.

Police said the airbags were activated as he was thrown from his motorcycle.

The officer, who had 20 years' experience, was still recovering from his injuries, the force said.

As I pointed out a couple of posts ago discussing this incident... that's a very strange outcome for someone who was 'saved'

weeksy wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 9:50 am

The Spin Doctor wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 9:43 am The entire point is that a discussion IS valid, because we should be accepting things at face value without evidence... and if the police don't provide that evidence...

I'm not honestly sure how it's possible to have a discussion based upon the information we have. We can certainly discuss jackets, airbags etc... but how we discuss something that we have very little information on, well, i don't see it. I'll bow out now as my point is being missed it seems.

I'm not actually attempting to have a discussion - I'm making an observation about the claim that the airbag 'saved' the rider.

What I am saying - and what you are missing - is that making statements like "the airbag saved him" gives the impression that in this particular crash, the airbag had real safety benefit... but unless the POLICE state something more meaningful about the circumstances of the crash, THEY CANNOT MAKE THAT CLAIM.

It's not me trying to make a claim about the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of the airbag... it's the police. And as I said... context is needed before they can state unequivocably that the 'airbag saved the rider'.

I really don't think I can explain this any more clearly.

The Spin Doctor wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 10:02 am It's not me trying to make a claim about the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of the airbag... it's the police.

Read the article again...

The Spin Doctor wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 9:56 am

Lutin wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 9:03 am Well, one Police rider appears to have benefited from an air-bag vest - Just Stop Oil protests: Airbags saved motorbike officer hurt on M25

A motorbike police officer injured on the M25 amid climate protests was saved by airbags built into his clothing, his force has said.

The Essex Police officer was hurt in a collision which also involved two lorries at a rolling roadblock on Wednesday.

Police said the airbags were activated as he was thrown from his motorcycle.

The officer, who had 20 years' experience, was still recovering from his injuries, the force said.

As I pointed out a couple of posts ago discussing this incident... that's a very strange outcome for someone who was 'saved'

I don't see those as contradictory.

The equipment might have reduced the severity of injury to make it survivable but still very nasty.

[Speculation mode on, for discussion only, not making any claims that this was what happened]

For example, if his chest was caught briefly between the bike and the barrier, the jacket might have spread the load to reduce the force on individualribs. But if he still received severe, life-threatening, chest injuries - flail chest, for example - he would still be off sick. The medicos would know, and may have said, how touch and go it was.

[/]

Another 'saved life' statement:

https://www.adventurebikerider.com/heli ... ice-biker/

The piece of gear that saved this police biker’s life

I think the Police tend to start at worse case scenario; ergo, saved from death and recovering from nonfatal injuries? Also, this is just a press release not an official appraisal of his protective clothing.

Horse wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 10:35 am Another 'saved life' statement:

https://www.adventurebikerider.com/heli ... ice-biker/

The piece of gear that saved this police biker’s life

from that article -

As more and more bikers emerge unscathed from nasty collisions, claiming their wearable airbags prevented a much worse outcome, why is it that we still see so few of them out on the road?

Because they are BASTARD expensive!

I would 100% have one if I could find one that both covers the area that I want to protect most AND that I could afford

For now, it's probably I can find the former, but not hte second!!

Taipan wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 10:48 am I think the Police tend to start at worse case scenario; ergo, saved from death and recovering from nonfatal injuries? Also, this is just a press release not an official appraisal of his protective clothing.

This, and what Weeksy said, is basically why I kept being 'argumentative'!

I don't necessarily think it saved his life, but until I know a LOT more (pics of the kit and description of accident at the minimum) I wouldn't want to be as negative as Horse and Spin have been


Maybe they are trying to negate the 'it saved a life' thing by being negative, but it has come across as anti air bags.

We all know the issues that it doesn't provide 'full' protection - but nor does and helmet, or leathers, or a back protector etc etc etc


For me, when airbags vests are more affordable, they are something I would like to add to my kit. Because, they might help protect my shoulder implant enough to mean I can continue to ride till my eyes/brain give up instead of having to stop riding because I have no/less use of my right arm

Equally, I ride in normal jeans mostly - but I always wear bike (or very good) boots, good gloves, a bike jacket of some sort and a decent helmet. I don't think any of those offer absolute protection for that area, but I want to mitigate the risk without stopping riding or wrapping myself in bubble wrap!!



As an aside - I spectacularly fucked up a corner at the weekend. No visibility for oncoming traffic and that could have ended in one of three ways - the way it did (I got LUCKY!) / head on into a vehicle / over the wall of the road and down (LONG way down) into a rocky valley.

None of my kit would have prevented serious injury (probably death) in the last two options. But I'll keep wearing it, cos it provides some protection for less violent incidents!

I'm not 'being negative'. I'm simply saying that unless there is context as regards the incident within the statement, claiming it 'saved' the officer is meaningless.

And I don't see a conflict between 'saved' and 'injured' either IF we actually had ANY idea what happened though 'prevented worse injury' would appear to be a more accurate statement. All we have is a photo of a bike propped up on the barrier!

And my last word on this...

I've checked the Essex Police statements and I cannot see the word 'saved' anywhere in them. The 'official update' that makes a mention of the airbag says:

"The Essex Police motorcycle officer who was injured on the M25 this week while working to keep people safe has thanked the public for the concern they have shown towards him.

"He would prefer to remain un-named at present and he is recovering from his injuries.

"The officer has been part of the Essex Police Roads Policing Unit for more than twenty years, having joined the unit in 2001.

"He is a highly experienced officer and was equipped with the force’s latest motorcycle and protective clothing, which includes built-in airbags.

"The airbags were activated as he was thrown from his motorcycle during the incident, while he was responding to criminal actions by Just Stop Oil."

THAT is a simple statement of fact. Nothing about being 'saved' by the airbag at all.

And digging a little deeper, it appears that the BBC report was in fact taken from on an ITV report from two days earlier, which made the claim: "A police officer injured in a motorcycle crash on the M25 during the Just Stop Oil protests was saved by airbags in his clothing, it has been revealed."

That suggests the report used by both news services was syndicated.

And I'd suggest that the 'saved' is journalistic licence.

On the basis of journalistic licence, I would disregard the 'story'.

That won't change how I feel about airbags!!

As I've said all along, we need to know more information before making decisions. Yes, you guys are right that the airbags almost certainly didn't 'save' him, but for me, I needed that little bit of info (that the police report didn't mention the airbags!) before agreeing.

But, I'm a much more sit on the fence kinda person than most!!

Noggin wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 11:15 am
I don't necessarily think it saved his life, but until I know a LOT more (pics of the kit and description of accident at the minimum) I wouldn't want to be as negative as Horse and Spin have been

Maybe they are trying to negate the 'it saved a life' thing by being negative, but it has come across as anti air bags.

Negative? No, trying to ensure realistic expectations from them.

Noggin wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 11:15 am We all know the issues that it doesn't provide 'full' protection - but nor does and helmet, or leathers, or a back protector etc etc etc

Ok, back protectors. Loads of different types, from 'armadillo' lookalike to the D3O 'grid'. How should riders choose between, what sort of additional/comparative protection can they expect? [NB I don't know]

Re armour in general. Recent research has shown that's not really effective at reducing broken bones, but does help reduce abrasion injury (a No Shit Sherlock finding. As the very old expression went: scrub a lot of leather a little bit, rather than a little bit a lot). The armour makes the rider less 'pointy' - if it stays in place.

Noggin wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 11:15 am Because, they might help protect my shoulder implant arm

Which may well limit your choices.

Noggin wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 11:15 am Equally, I ride in normal jeans mostly - but I always wear bike (or very good) boots, good gloves, a bike jacket of some sort and a decent helmet.

Any reason why you don't have jeans with armour, or leather jeans?

Horse wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:31 pm

Noggin wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 11:15 am We all know the issues that it doesn't provide 'full' protection - but nor does and helmet, or leathers, or a back protector etc etc etc

Ok, back protectors. Loads of different types, from 'armadillo' lookalike to the D3O 'grid'. How should riders choose between, what sort of additional/comparative protection can they expect? [NB I don't know]

Re armour in general. Recent research has shown that's not really effective at reducing broken bones, but does help reduce abrasion injury (a No Shit Sherlock finding. As the very old expression went: scrub a lot of leather a little bit, rather than a little bit a lot). The armour makes the rider less 'pointy' - if it stays in place.

As I've written in the past. I feel that moving solid armour certainly played a big part in the severity of damage to my shoulder. Too late to prevent but I can learn!!

However, I don't expect any armour to prevent breakage - just, hopefully, reduce worse damage (now I ensure I have removed any hard armour - which I usually did and still don't understand why I hadn't from the jacket I crashed in!)

Horse wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:31 pm

Noggin wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 11:15 am Because, they might help protect my shoulder implant arm

Which may well limit your choices.

Well. I'm limited on pretty much all my life choices now. But if my shoulder implant is wrecked, extremely limited would be the description. So, I'll aim to protect that over most other areas. Because that, for now and to me, is the major risk. I'm lucky enough to have a surgeon and phsyio that work WITH me to ride a motorbike, despite the risks. So I'll do the best I can to protect the implant so that even if it does get damaged, I'll still have 'some' use of the arm

Horse wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:31 pm

Noggin wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 11:15 am Equally, I ride in normal jeans mostly - but I always wear bike (or very good) boots, good gloves, a bike jacket of some sort and a decent helmet.

Any reason why you don't have jeans with armour, or leather jeans?

- Because armour was never in the 'right' place

- Because I couldn't find comfortable bike jeans to fit

- Because if there was a pair of jeans I could deal with wearing, there was a patch of velcro (or usually 3 or 4 patches) that would scratch and cut my skin constantly so making the protection of the jeans useless as I was completely distracted by the discomfort of the scratching

- Because leather jeans were so damn hot and uncomfortable off the bike. I rode to places to chat and wander and do stuff other than bike. I could do all that in 'normal' jeans and did try with bike jeans. But leathers for road riding were just not comfortable for most of the time because a lot of the time I was off the bike

I always wore leathers on trackdays and they were the most comfortable (I did a bike safe day which included a bit of track and had a textile jacket with bike jeans - would have preferred leathers for the track bit).

For me comfort was always the most important part of my kit. If it's not comfortable it's distracting and so less safe

The times I've come off the bike on the road, my kit (or lack of it) has been fine. When I smashed my shoulder, yes, my knees now have extra scars from that hit too (think they smashed the edge of the screen as I 'flew' over) - but they'd still have been cut by the fabric of the inside of bike jeans (my knees bleed and scab if I fall onto them wearing normal jeans; the abrasion of the fabric for bike jenas would have ripped the skin/scar tissue on my knees).
Had I had plastic armour over my knees, well, in theory that would have protected breakage but I suspect that, because the armour wouldn't have been in the correct place, it is just as likely to have cracked bones instead - apparently I have an old kneecap fracture, wouldn't like to think what would have happened to that if plastic armour had taken a hit whilst in the wrong place on my kneecap!!


I know that best kit for me is made to measure. I've never been able to afford made to measure. When I can, I will. Then I can get the softer armour in the correct place and with proper fastenings that are finished properly with no velcro in places to scratch and cut as I ride.

Until then, I'll have to wing it as I always have, in the best way I can.

Ta for big reply - I didn't expect it!

(I'm one finger typing on a phone)

Noggin wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:00 pm I don't expect any armour to prevent breakage

Some riders probably do.

Noggin wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:00 pm

Horse wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:31 pm

Noggin wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 11:15 am Because, they might help protect my shoulder implant arm

Which may well limit your choices.

Well. I'm limited on pretty much all my life choices now. But if my shoulder implant is wrecked, extremely limited would be the description.

I meant literally your choices in air gear.

Noggin wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:00 pm I always wore leathers on trackdays

As I've said before: dress for the crash you exprct to have

Noggin wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:00 pm For me comfort was always the most important part of my kit. If it's not comfortable it's distracting and so less safe

My gear was a one piece waterproof suit over clothes. 2 minutes after arriving anyway I could look like a normal person (T&Cs apply). It was a fabric suit, but I chose one that had heavyweight fabric (thicker in more vulnerable areas) and strong seams. But, TBH, the armour was 'ok' and I never bothered to upgrade.

My compromises were weather (cold, wet, or hot) and comfort over crash protection. I deliberately bought a one piece so that I wouldn't be tempted to ride in just jeans.

Horse wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:49 pm Ta for big reply - I didn't expect it!

(I'm one finger typing on a phone)

LOL I'm at a laptop and touch type Always tempting to type too much!

Horse wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:31 pm

Noggin wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:00 pm
Well. I'm limited on pretty much all my life choices now. But if my shoulder implant is wrecked, extremely limited would be the description.

I meant literally your choices in air gear.

Oh, I get that, and kinda meant that too. But, even on bike jackets I'm limited as need something that moves freely for the arm - I can't put any pressure on the shoulder to 'push' the leather/tight jacket so I can reach the bars.
Even 'normal' clothes I'm limited - can't do zips at the back or on the left side, nothing that needs pulling off over my head with both arms etc etc

Requirements for an airbag vest will be very specific, but as I've described about normal bike gear, it's never been easy to find stuff to fit. Even slim, hourglass figures don't fit in most kit (well, pre five years ago!!)

Horse wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:31 pm My gear was a one piece waterproof suit over clothes. 2 minutes after arriving anyway I could look like a normal person (T&Cs apply). It was a fabric suit, but I chose one that had heavyweight fabric (thicker in more vulnerable areas) and strong seams. But, TBH, the armour was 'ok' and I never bothered to upgrade.

My compromises were weather (cold, wet, or hot) and comfort over crash protection. I deliberately bought a one piece so that I wouldn't be tempted to ride in just jeans.

Even one piece leathers were a bastard to get to fit me (had to buy mens in the end as per usual, too long in the leg and arm and too big above the hip cos to fit my hips they had to be huge everywhere else ), so I've never bothered to look for road type one piece stuff. I'll buy stuff that isn't quite the right fit for track because it's necessary and in general I can bypass any issues for 20-30 minutes!