Douwe Egberts Coffee

[Count Steer]

He ended up with a fleet of 50 trucks......

.....employing 50 drivers on £12.50/hrs struggling to think of the next big idea that would get them out of the crummy job. You see? He made the problem bigger!

[Docca]

It always seems weird to me that people choose to do a job and then moan that they don't get paid as much as they would like - change jobs then...or stay and get whatever it pays.
If you're getting less than you think you're worth then it's not someone else's fault, it's because of your choices.

Does this type of view help perpetuate this situation? No English people have wanted to do the menial tasks for generations, but move on ( or sign on)?

Should it be about leaving, or should it be about society recognising worth of its people?

Recently, when there was a mob of thousands cheering when that mentalist suggested hanging nurses and doctors- I wonder how many in crowd were from the side of the fence that believed the world owed them a favour?

[Horse]

That guy had ambition. But he could barely read and write.

Paper qualifications don't mean very much.

I've posted before that I'm about the only person in the company in any sort of similar role who doesn't have a degree, Masters or PhD (we don't have any professors at the moment). I have an HTC, that's it.

Funnier, though, is that I work in 'risk' and 'safety' - but have no qualifications in those areas

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

It always seems weird to me that people choose to do a job and then moan that they don't get paid as much as they would like - change jobs then...or stay and get whatever it pays.
If you're getting less than you think you're worth then it's not someone else's fault, it's because of your choices.

Does this type of view help perpetuate this situation? No English people have wanted to do the menial tasks for generations, but move on ( or sign on)?

Should it be about leaving, or should it be about society recognising worth of its people?

Recently, when there was a mob of thousands cheering when that mentalist suggested hanging nurses and doctors- I wonder how many in crowd were from the side of the fence that believed the world owed them a favour?

Nobody wants to do menial work, they do it because they want to get paid and it's the work that's available to them.

But I don't think driving a lorry is menial, thinking about it, no work is menial, it all needs doing, otherwise people wouldn't get paid for it.

[MrLongbeard]

Funnier, though, is that I work in 'risk' and 'safety' - but have no qualifications in those areas

Yeah, but so do I, it ain't rocket surgery

[Saga Lout]

Recently, when there was a mob of thousands cheering when that mentalist suggested hanging nurses and doctors- I wonder how many in crowd were from the side of the fence that believed the world owed them a favour?

Hanging doctors and nurses? I missed that. Estate agents and politicians I can understand but doctors and nurses?

Oh, and lawyers, and bankers and others too numerous to mention. Come the revolution my only problem will be deciding who's first up against the wall.

[Horse]

I think it's since the 90's

Further back.

I can remember my dad saying (in 1979*) about certain immigrant workers at the factory doing jobs that British people wouldn't.

* Remembered specifically because it related to a bike that I was rebuilding.

[irie]

I forget who (perhaps Bradbury or Heinlein) first proposed the idea, which certainly has some merits, that the more menial the job the better it should be paid, and vice versa.

[Nobby]

BBC News - Pay rise for Aldi lorry drivers amid shortage
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58047483

[Mussels]

BBC News - Pay rise for Aldi lorry drivers amid shortage
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58047483

All roses for them until Aldi announces it's investing in driverless trucks to save the huge wage bill. They have a few years but expect having that hanging over the industry won't help.

[Count Steer]

I forget who (perhaps Bradbury or Heinlein) first proposed the idea, which certainly has some merits, that the more menial the job the better it should be paid, and vice versa.

I haven't seen this theory, why does he suggest that? Is it because because poorly paid people are more likely to be lower skilled and lower in intelligence and therefore more likely to get involved in crime, but if you give them enough money they won't do any crime or antisocial behaviour?

Whatever the theory, I see two issues, firstly this...(this is what happens when bin men get too much money )



And secondly, if you reverse the natural situation and make clever people poor, then they will eventually scheme. Human nature and natural order will conspire to make them very mean and they'll eventually end up back at the top but this time they will be ruthless. Social engineering can only be taken so far until nature says "Hang on a minute" and puts things back to how she intended.

Charles B Handy suggested, in his studies on the future of work, that some work would be less critical to the functioning of a wealthy society but would have prestige and a certain amount of pleasure/interest in doing them. Other work would be essential but unpleasant and should be rewarded appropriately. There was rather more to it than that but that's the nub of it.
I suppose it's rather like academics and binmen going on strike. Which one makes our lives noticeably worse? If you had a choice of doing a year in a deep mine or paying someone to do it for you, how much would you pay? Some jobs must be done, if we won't do them, who will?
PS The archetypal guy in the jacuzzi has a large collection of ridiculously expensive watches, sports cars and a large, modern, 'executive' house called 'Dunbinnin'. It's true, money doesn't buy class but it does buy toys which soften the blow of doing an unpleasant job....
The actual sad cases are often people like lottery winners and wealth inheritors. Unearned money seems to have a worse impact than hard earned.

[Horse]

BBC News - Pay rise for Aldi lorry drivers amid shortage
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58047483

All roses for them until Aldi announces it's investing in driverless trucks to save the huge wage bill. They have a few years but expect having that hanging over the industry won't help.

Agriculture is a decade ahead on automation, a major reason being staff shortages.

[Count Steer]

Charles B Handy suggested, in his studies on the future of work, that some work would be less critical to the functioning of a wealthy society but would have prestige and a certain amount of pleasure/interest in doing them. Other work would be essential but unpleasant and should be rewarded appropriately. There was rather more to it than that but that's the nub of it.

That already happens to a degree....

It is happening, but to give Charles B his due, his book 'The Future of Work' was published in 1984.
I was at one of his talks (we got him to speak to our professional association - I had the unenviable task of giving the vote of thanks bit). A number of his projections have proved to be pretty spot on.

[JackyJoll]

Funnier, though, is that I work in 'risk' and 'safety' - but have no qualifications in those areas

Yeah, but so do I, it ain't rocket surgery

I suppose I do too and am similarly uneducated.

[Noggin]

It is happening, but to give Charles B his due, his book 'The Future of Work' was published in 1984.
I was at one of his talks (we got him to speak to our professional association - I had the unenviable task of giving the vote of thanks bit). A number of his projections have proved to be pretty spot on.

That particular point was hardly ground breaking though, I remember my dad saying that my Grandfather always told him to get a trade because at some point those trades would be taught less and less and they'd be valuable, he gave me the same advice and it was good for me as well.
My 17yr old sees it as well, he's grown up around 'professionals' and his college are trying to push him to Uni, but he wants to be an electrician.

Unskilled labour is unlikely to ever be able to make big demands though and ironically there is now probably more unskilled labour out there than there has been at any other time in the last century - but they have a piece of paper called a degree - many of them are worth very little and they have no skill, but they think they do, so they won't do "unskilled" work to get started.
I watched a TV show a few years back where a mid-20's lad with a media studies degree had been unemployed for about three years and they put him to work as a home carer, he lasted a day before he had a tantrum, didn't turn up to work and said he shouldn't have to do that sort of work because he had a degree. He seemed to miss the fact that his degree on its own offered nothing of value to an employer and he'd utterly failed to carve out any sort of speciality that built on it and offered any value, it was literally just a piece of paper attached to an unskilled human being who thought it was his golden ticket.

But for a while (maybe still, not sure) all students were told to go to university and then they would be too educated to work at MacDonald's or cleaning or bin jobs etc etc

That was when people really stopped doing apprenticeships (I think - around the time I didn't go to university!). For a few decades the politicians (and probably a lot of parents) have been telling kids that if they work well at school and go get a degree in something (anything?) they'll be 'too good' to do anything less than degree qualified work!!

Downside is, few people qualify that advice/instruction with the information that you kinda need a degree that is actually wanted/needed. Or, as you've written, make yourself useful with other added qualifications.

I know loads of people who have been to university and got the degree (a handful got proper degrees and firsts) - very few are doing the job that should have resulted from the degree. Few even want to still go into that line of work. And even more did a degree in 'stuff' that's no use to anyone, least of all them. But they were told to do it and that it makes them better etc etc etc

[slowsider]

Funnier, though, is that I work in 'risk' and 'safety' - but have no qualifications in those areas

Yeah, but so do I, it ain't rocket surgery

I suppose I do too and am similarly uneducated.

I guess the lack of qualifications only becomes significant if you are signing-off on stuff that may come back to bite you; a lawyer asking why you made the decision leading up to an incident is looking for more than 'it ain't rocket surgery'...

[JackyJoll]

Yeah, but so do I, it ain't rocket surgery

I suppose I do too and am similarly uneducated.

I guess the lack of qualifications only becomes significant if you are signing-off on stuff that may come back to bite you; a lawyer asking why you made the decision leading up to an incident is looking for more than 'it ain't rocket surgery'...

The lawyer is looking for a lot more than “I got a First at Christ’s!”

[Horse]

Yeah, but so do I, it ain't rocket surgery

I suppose I do too and am similarly uneducated.

I guess the lack of qualifications only becomes significant if you are signing-off on stuff that may come back to bite you; a lawyer asking why you made the decision leading up to an incident is looking for more than 'it ain't rocket surgery'...

For a lot of what I have been involved with, it's been whether or not, and how, risks have been identified and considered. Then documenting that process.

Potentially being in court for causing a multiple fatality motorway crash focuses the mind

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

I'm currently having the "what degree should I do" discussion with my 17 year old daughter, she seems to have no concept of what she'll do with this degree once she's got it, fuck knows what her teachers have told her, because she doesn't appear to have grasped the concept that qualifications are something you use to get a job.

My wife has a degree, I don't, discussions aren't going well.

[DefTrap]

But for a while (maybe still, not sure) all students were told to go to university and then they would be too educated to work at MacDonald's or cleaning or bin jobs etc etc

That was when people really stopped doing apprenticeships (I think - around the time I didn't go to university!). For a few decades the politicians (and probably a lot of parents) have been telling kids that if they work well at school and go get a degree in something (anything?) they'll be 'too good' to do anything less than degree qualified work!!

Downside is, few people qualify that advice/instruction with the information that you kinda need a degree that is actually wanted/needed. Or, as you've written, make yourself useful with other added qualifications.

I know loads of people who have been to university and got the degree (a handful got proper degrees and firsts) - very few are doing the job that should have resulted from the degree. Few even want to still go into that line of work. And even more did a degree in 'stuff' that's no use to anyone, least of all them. But they were told to do it and that it makes them better etc etc etc

I did a degree in the 80s because "I thought I should", "it was there" and because it was one of those aspirational things that middling-class parents pushed their kids to do at that moment in time. I'm sort of glad I did it but it taught me very little academically that I couldn't have looked up in a book from the library (except in those days libraries seemed to be woefully unprepared to stock sufficient copies of books to support the courses).

I'm absolutely certain I'd have been better off and happier pushed in a direction that didn't need any academic qualifications. Probably not lorry driving though.