Formula 1, 2021 season, tips, info, pics, thread.

[Screwdriver]

@Screwdriver You're in a minority of one. Just check the 'likes'. Give it up.

We are all in a minority of one. Interesting that as ever, there is no constructive argument to the points I raise, merely some suggestion I am somehow automatically wrong because of reasons.

Once you resort to personalising the issue, the argument is lost. If it was "obviously" not Hamiltons fault then surely a simple explanation would put me right.

[mangocrazy]

You've had countless reasons given why your analysis is flawed, but you choose to ignore them or regard them as invalid. Your irrational dislike of Hamilton is blinding you to any other conclusion than the one you are promoting.

[MingtheMerciless]

@mangocrazy he’s trying to wear everyone down by droning on and on and on…….

Incidentally Max’s desperate lunge to be in front/bully Lewis looks to have cost RB £1.3 million.

[mangocrazy]

Yeah, the 'if you can't beat them with logic and reason, just bore the fuckers to death' approach.

I seem to recall that earlier in the season Merc suffered a mishap to one of their cars (Bottas's I think), which effectively wrote it off and cost Merc a similar sum. But Wolff didn't go bleating to the media and trying to use it as a reason to get the other driver (Russell?) banned or suspended. Horner is becoming Mr Whiney Git..

[Screwdriver]

You've had countless reasons given why your analysis is flawed, but you choose to ignore them or regard them as invalid. Your irrational dislike of Hamilton is blinding you to any other conclusion than the one you are promoting.

I have presented my assessment here:

Hamilton is behind max at all times. He is never in front.

The inside line is slower than running around the outside, Hamilton probably knows this as a 7 times world champ . Assuming both drivers are pretty good at what they do (!) and can maximise their entry speed, Max can brake later and carry more speed so because Hamilton is already behind he will have to brake sooner carry less speed into the apex. He has to fall further behind Max.

Hamilton went for an overtake, never got to the point where it would work unless Max decided to concede the corner. But since Max is ahead, it is his corner and he is not going to give it up just because Hamilton is threatening to divebomb him.

Hamilton should have realised he couldn't make this move without Max capitulating to the threat of a deliberate collision. Max did not give up the corner, Hamilton rammed him off from behind.

For the second time is the same season, Max has a potential victory wiped out and scores nil point. Thats 50 points lost to Hamilton in a championship that will probably be decided by a handful of points.

Hamilton goes on to win which is a double whammy. Subtract 25 points from max, the stewards donate 25 points to Hamilton with a slap on the wrist penalty for taking out Max.

I must agree, your ad hominem argument has some merit, yes I am an idiot and of course I completely ignore everything everyone else is saying despite the fact that I have addressed them all in my responses. Clearly "everyone" agrees with you so you must be right. I must therefore accept everyone else is correct even though noone has offered a response to the argument I present above.

I really ought to "give up". Excellent work, so we agree, Hamilton was clearly fouled by Max when Lewis divebombed the corner and rammed Max off the track at 160mph. How dare Max turn right into a righthander and only give Hamilton half the track and not all of it as is his right. Seems like the stewards also got it wrong when they declared Hamilton was predominantly at fault.

But hey, "everyone" here knows better.

[Mr. Dazzle]

@Screwdriver You're in a minority of one. Just check the 'likes'. Give it up.

TBF he's not...the FIA (who include F1 drivers on their panel don't forget) clearly thought Hamilton was in the wrong too.

From my POV this is just racing. If Hamilton had made it stick it'd have been lauded as a great move.

[weeksy]

Easy fellas.

[mangocrazy]

@Screwdriver You're in a minority of one. Just check the 'likes'. Give it up.

TBF he's not...the FIA (who include F1 drivers on their panel don't forget) clearly thought Hamilton was in the wrong too.

From my POV this is just racing. If Hamilton had made it stick it'd have been lauded as a great move.

In the current state of F1, it appears that there has to be 'fault' whenever an incident such as this occurs, even when most commentators feel that it was simply a racing incident. I agree - the whole incident looks suspiciously just like racing to me. Check out Jolyon Palmer's detailed analysis of the incident on Youtube. He ultimately classes it as a racing incident.

If the panel thought it was any way intentional, or LH was seriously at fault then the penalty would have been far more severe. The light nature of the penalty indicates that it takes two to tango, but Max was the one who suffered. So Lewis gets a token penalty.

The problem occurs when emotive language is used; i.e. "Hamilton was clearly fouled by Max when Lewis divebombed the corner and rammed Max off the track at 160mph". There was no divebombing, Max was not rammed off the track, it was a light touch of LH's front left wheel on MV's right rear, but at those speeds everything is magnified. It was basically two drivers on the limit, beither of whom were going to back down. A racing incident.

[Screwdriver]

Technically, the very definition of "divebombing" is going up the inside with no possibility of success unless the defender capitulates AND causing a collision when they don't. If Hamilton had not collided with Max then he might have been on for a "block pass" but a block pass, by its very definition, requires the attacker to be ahead.

Hamilton was blinded by the red mist, made a mistake and caused a massive accident. I used to be a Hamilton fan but now the only likeable thing about him is that he's happy to dress like a clown to amuse the audience.

[MingtheMerciless]

Lewis didn’t cause the accident, he was significantly alongside Max when Max dived across, it was first lap elbows out racing. Max was expecting Lewis to bottle it but for once the on track bully found that someone wasn’t about to submit to him.

[mangocrazy]

Max is, by some margin, the most aggressive driver on the grid. All the drivers know that. This time his aggression in turning in on LH when he should have left space was his undoing. LH has often ceded ground to MV in earlier races this year to avoid a collision, something that MV would have been very aware of. This time Lewis left his car where it was and Max turned in on him, with the ensuing results. This time karma bit Max in the arse. He needs to reflect on his attitude, but I doubt he will.

[Screwdriver]

Lewis didn’t cause the accident, he was significantly alongside Max when Max dived across, it was first lap elbows out racing. Max was expecting Lewis to bottle it but for once the on track bully found that someone wasn’t about to submit to him.

So "significantly alongside" i.e. not "actually alongside" because in fact behind? We can agree on that at least.

Lewis was in fact, found to be predominantly at fault. I disagree in that I believe it was entirely Hamiltons fault and I say that because I appreciate the skill these drivers all have is at another level to mere humans. Lewis could have avoided that collision if he had not strayed to the left in an attempt to block Max from turing right. It is racing yes but Hamilton got it wrong big time. His mistake, Max paid for it, big time.

Max left Hamilton a cars width which is required under sporting regulations, Hamilton took two. Hamilton is pretty much in the centre of the track albeit still way off line and too hot. Max took the racing line after giving H enough room which he is entitled to do since he is ahead and the attacking driver does not "have the corner".

Eventually Max does actually have to turn right you know. He can't just disappear.

Max is, by some margin, the most aggressive driver on the grid. All the drivers know that. This time his aggression in turning in on LH when he should have left space was his undoing. LH has often ceded ground to MV in earlier races this year to avoid a collision, something that MV would have been very aware of. This time Lewis left his car where it was and Max turned in on him, with the ensuing results. This time karma bit Max in the arse. He needs to reflect on his attitude, but I doubt he will.

You can say "turn in" as much as you like but Max is turning right as he must do in order to go around the corner! He has already briefly opened the steering to allow H enough room and not crowd him off the track. H is behind at all times.

NB Behind = "almost alongside", "significantly alongside", "nearly level" these are all euphemisms for "behind". The driver in front gets to choose his line, the driver behind does not get to choose it for him.

No one has addressed the most obvious point that Hamilton was so far offline on the inside of the track he could not hope to maintain overspeed on Max and therefore had no chance to go past Max before the apex. He would have to slow down anyway. Max knew he could maintain his speed, on the racing line and that Hamilton had plenty of room on the inside.

I would have been much happier to see some honesty and an apology from Lewis. He's not man enough for that it would appear and his vacuous personality (of the year) sounds more like a legal disclaimer. A bit more authenticity would go a long way.

[MingtheMerciless]

Totally disagree, Lewis wasn't performing some Hail Mary manoeuvre coming from miles back, Max knew he was there, significantly alongside, but chose to try and take the corner as if he wasn't there in an attempt to put a hard aggressive pass and assert dominance, Lewis wasn't backing down and a racing incident occurred with two top drivers fighting for position.

[Screwdriver]

Well then we have to agree to disagree because quite unarguably, Lewis' manoeuvre did not work.

I am liking the "significantly alongside" euphemism. It is growing on me and I can see how from your perspective it is a much more useful phrase than the simple truth that Lewis was attempting to overtake, mid bend, offline, up the inside of a high speed corner, from behind.

Out of interest and speaking of euphemisms, what exactly is a "Hail Mary"? "Send it" and be damned? Try something hugely risky and hope it all works out? Be interested to hear what your definition of a "Hail Mary" is because a bit like "divebombing" it is a fairly loose term and might even apply in this case.

Let's not forget, Lewis hit Max's' rear wheel with his front, mid bend up the inside. When he punted him off he wasn't even "significantly alongside" he was half a car behind. No one is arguing against that I hope.

[Mr Moofo]

Well then we have to agree to disagree because quite unarguably, Lewis' manoeuvre did not work.

I am liking the "significantly alongside" euphemism. It is growing on me and I can see how from your perspective it is a much more useful phrase than the simple truth that Lewis was attempting to overtake, mid bend, offline, up the inside of a high speed corner, from behind.

Out of interest and speaking of euphemisms, what exactly is a "Hail Mary"? "Send it" and be damned? Try something hugely risky and hope it all works out? Be interested to hear what your definition of a "Hail Mary" is because a bit like "divebombing" it is a fairly loose term and might even apply in this case.

Let's not forget, Lewis hit Max's' rear wheel with his front, mid bend up the inside. When he punted him off he wasn't even "significantly alongside" he was half a car behind. No one is arguing against that I hope.

Lewis’s manoeuvre did work

[MingtheMerciless]

I would counter that Max hit Lewis with his aggressive turn in knowing full well Lewis was there and hoping that he’d bully Lewis out of the way.

[Screwdriver]

I would counter that Max hit Lewis with his aggressive turn in knowing full well Lewis was there and hoping that he’d bully Lewis out of the way.

Yes you would, you might also suggest Mike Tyson head butted Frank Bruno on the fist.

[mangocrazy]

Lewis was in fact, found to be predominantly at fault. I disagree in that I believe it was entirely Hamiltons fault and I say that because I appreciate the skill these drivers all have is at another level to mere humans. Lewis could have avoided that collision if he had not strayed to the left in an attempt to block Max from turing right. It is racing yes but Hamilton got it wrong big time. His mistake, Max paid for it, big time.

Lewis did not stray to the left. He simply held his line. Max decided to turn in on LH and paid the price. Max's error, but one that was severely punished. This does sometimes happen, you know.

Max left Hamilton a cars width which is required under sporting regulations, Hamilton took two. Hamilton is pretty much in the centre of the track albeit still way off line and too hot. Max took the racing line after giving H enough room which he is entitled to do since he is ahead and the attacking driver does not "have the corner".

Eventually Max does actually have to turn right you know. He can't just disappear.

Hamilton could not 'take two' widths because Max was holding the middle of the track down the preceding stright. LH had the option of going for the outside or the inside; he chose the inside, where there was only a little more than a car's width. LH was never in the 'middle of the track' - he couldn't be, because that was where Max was. Your dislike of LH has clearly affected your vision. Max had the choice to continue on his arc or turn in and hit LH if he didn't yield. LH didn't yield, Max turned in anyway and there was (predictably) contact.

NB Behind = "almost alongside", "significantly alongside", "nearly level" these are all euphemisms for "behind". The driver in front gets to choose his line, the driver behind does not get to choose it for him.

You need to get yourself a good dictionary. 'Behind' means to the rear of or following the driver in front. Max and Lewis were partially or significantly alongside, which changes everything. I understand why you don't accept the validity of these terms - if you did it blows your whole argument apart.

No one has addressed the most obvious point that Hamilton was so far offline on the inside of the track he could not hope to maintain overspeed on Max and therefore had no chance to go past Max before the apex. He would have to slow down anyway. Max knew he could maintain his speed, on the racing line and that Hamilton had plenty of room on the inside.

Lewis was not offline. Just go and watch Jolyon Palmer's analysis on Youtube (someone infinitely better qualified to pronounce than you or I) and then come back. The difference this time around was that LH did not back off to avoid a collision, as he had done so many times previously this season. This time he held his line, did not back off and awaited the consequences. Max assumed that Lewis would cede the corner (as he had done every time previously) and turned in. Whether he expected Lewis would back off or whether he was going to do it anyway we can't know. But by making that decision he essentially put himself out of the race.

I would have been much happier to see some honesty and an apology from Lewis. He's not man enough for that it would appear and his vacuous personality (of the year) sounds more like a legal disclaimer. A bit more authenticity would go a long way.

We get it. You really don't like Lewis.

[MingtheMerciless]

I would counter that Max hit Lewis with his aggressive turn in knowing full well Lewis was there and hoping that he’d bully Lewis out of the way.

Yes you would, you might also suggest Mike Tyson head butted Frank Bruno on the fist.

I have no idea what your going on about but I’m guessing it’s an insult so I’ll just say your wrong and leave this here.

2DFA3D77-96A2-4B81-889E-7F0DD4CA96BF.jpeg (186.17 KiB) Viewed 267 times

[Screwdriver]

I would counter that Max hit Lewis with his aggressive turn in knowing full well Lewis was there and hoping that he’d bully Lewis out of the way.

Yes you would, you might also suggest Mike Tyson head butted Frank Bruno on the fist.

I have no idea what your going on about but I’m guessing it’s an insult so I’ll just say your wrong and leave this here.

2DFA3D77-96A2-4B81-889E-7F0DD4CA96BF.jpeg

No not really more of an observation that one hand clapping is not really a thing. You hit me, I hit you, we hit each other. They did of course hit each other so the notion of who hit who is logically absurd and comes down to intent.

The rest of your post is quite interesting and I am rethinking the idea of "significantly alongside" compared to my "behind" (so to speak). I will have a look at Jolyon Palmer I guess but there are as many for as against. I did try to fathom out the gentlemen's agreement on who "owns" a corner and under what circumstances but that FIA approved document is also rather vague.

I still suggest Max did not "turn in" in the vernacular meaning of that phrase but yes he did have to try and make the corner.

Where I must admit I am biased is that I am swayed more by the consequence of the collision than the actual event itself. Good job I'm not a steward.

I was once a huge Hamilton fan but feel betrayed by his off the track antics. Especially his preaching about ecology, energy efficiency and recycling etc. No one is bigger than the sport and yet like Ferrari back in the good ol' days, Mercedes/Hamilton combo seem to have some sort of hold over the FIA so that they can nit pick every little thing RedBull have done to their cars to make them competitive. Toto is way worse in that regard than Horner.

Mercedes can't get near RedBull on pitstops (1.8 seconds!) so they lobby the FIA and suddenly you have to add 0.2 seconds to RedBulls amazing pitstoppery for elfin safety. FFS...