A question about gear usage.

[Demannu]

How does an observer know if you are in the right gear or not?
The 2 I have been out with have different opinions on my gear selection.
Neither have ridden my bike, 1 of them is on a 1200 BMW and the other on a 750/4, both of which have totally different characteristics to my bike (900/3).
I tend to keep the motor at 4k rpm, which means I'm not too anti social on the noise but smack bang on the torque for instant oomph if reqd.
Coming down the box I usually hold the bike in the gears and change down at 4/5k, and allow the engine braking to do most of the work.
Or is it a case of opinions are like arseholes!

[weeksy]

Did they say you were too low in the rpm range then ?

[Horse]

Some claim to count riders' gearchanges.

On one occasion I rode where I could see the rev counter (Ducati 600 Supersport, he was revving it up to 2k then changing up).

I think I was probably more concerned with how the bike accelerated and slowed (compared to my thoughts on what was appropriate). If that was inconsistent it my be to obs & planning, or execution.

[Horse]

Coming down the box I usually hold the bike in the gears and change down at 4/5k, and allow the engine braking to do most of the work.

Were their comments in relation to this?

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

Change up at the red line or after, change down when you need to slow down

[KungFooBob]

On the bike, whatever 'feels' right, I couldn't tell you what gear I'm in at any given time (except on the Brick as it's got a gear indicator).

In the car, at any speed over 35mph i'm in 6th.

[slowsider]

How does an observer know if you are in the right gear or not?
The 2 I have been out with have different opinions on my gear selection.
Neither have ridden my bike, 1 of them is on a 1200 BMW and the other on a 750/4, both of which have totally different characteristics to my bike (900/3).
I tend to keep the motor at 4k rpm, which means I'm not too anti social on the noise but smack bang on the torque for instant oomph if reqd.
Coming down the box I usually hold the bike in the gears and change down at 4/5k, and allow the engine braking to do most of the work.
Or is it a case of opinions are like arseholes!

More than one gear will usually suit any given circumstance, but it depends on what else you are doing. I was out with a guy on an R1 (I was on a TDM - 'totally different characteristics' ) and it took a while puzzling out why he was having trouble with corners for me to focus on his gearchanging. He was changing UP on the approach. We chatted, I suggested he try changing down after he had slowed to the speed he wanted, and it all began to slot together.

[Demannu]

One said I wasn't using them efficiently, the other said I was using too many revs!!!
Hence my question.
Or is it all subjective bollocks to keep you questioning your riding?

[Horse]

One said I wasn't using them efficiently, the other said I was using too many revs!!!

That might, or might not, apply together

If you're wanting to get a move on then revs are needed (T&Cs apply).

'Efficient' might be due to where you needed to change (up or down), which could be due to planning and initial choice. Or perhaps they know the bike's engine and at what revs it's most fuel efficient?

Or is it all subjective bollocks to keep you questioning your riding?

You need to (presuming you didn't?) ask how you're supposed to improve, eg what should you base those choices on?

But, yes, it is all subjective. If you have successfully ridden to the session, completed it, then returned home, then you probably have the basics. After that, it's subjective.

If they're trying to mould your riding, is that style how you want it to be?

[weeksy]

Having tried to chase you, you deffo used too many at Donny that time

[Demannu]

One said I wasn't using them efficiently, the other said I was using too many revs!!!

You need to (presuming you didn't?) ask how you're supposed to improve, eg what should you base those choices on?

Well, the one observer tells me I need to hold the gear longer and not short shift it...........and the other one change up sooner and down later.
Confused.com

[The Spin Doctor]

Quite simply, I'd be looking at what the bike was doing...

- were you changing gear late and mid-manoeuvre? For example, it's pretty obvious when a rider HAS has to change gear (as opposed to CHOOSES to change gear). Typical errors are being forced to shift downwards immediately after starting an overtake (began in too high a gear with no acceleration and pretty common - it's one I still make myself occasionally) or up mid-roundabout or on a long opening radius corner(started in too low a gear and ran out of revs).
- were you making upward gear changes and a moment later making downward shifts? In that case, you could probably hold onto the lower gear.
- were you being forced to make minor speed corrections using the brakes? If so, you were probably in too high a gear and not getting any meaningful engine braking.
- were you forcing the bike down the gearbox to generate engine braking? If so I'd say braking first, then matching speed with the gears is the right answer
- where there any obvious moments you were in the wrong gear? Like the overtaking example.

One thing I do pick up is getting into 2nd as soon as the bike's moving. Many basic trainers teach riders to do that - I've never been quite sure why. But unlike a couple of tonnes of car, bikes slow pretty quickly when the clutch is pulled in, and when moving off from red lights that can be an issue. I prefer to get riders to use 1st till they are travelling at at least 20 mph and preferably a bit more before taking 2nd.

The different engine characteristics point is something any assessor should be aware of. I got told I was in too high a gear on a BikeSafe course. "No, the bike wasn't lacking acceleration when I needed it" he said "but it's a 600 so you should be in 2nd and 3rd gear on roads like these". The fact that the XJ6 is not an R6, has a red line at 11,500 and low gearing to boot wasn't on his radar. I ended up riding around for the second half of the assessment revving the nuts off the bike and actually slipping over the top of the torque curve, but he was counting gearshifts so it kept him happy. I can't possibly have ridden every single bike out there so unless there are obvious issues such as I've mentioned, I tend not to be too bothered. If it works, that's fine by me.

[Skub]

I got told I was in too high a gear on a BikeSafe course. "No, the bike wasn't lacking acceleration when I needed it" he said "but it's a 600 so you should be in 2nd and 3rd gear on roads like these". The fact that the XJ6 is not an R6, has a red line at 11,500 and low gearing to boot wasn't on his radar. I ended up riding around for the second half of the assessment revving the nuts off the bike and actually slipping over the top of the torque curve, but he was counting gearshifts so it kept him happy.

That's just friggin nuts man. Honestly what use are people like that to anyone?

[Horse]

One said I wasn't using them efficiently, the other said I was using too many revs!!!

You need to (presuming you didn't?) ask how you're supposed to improve, eg what should you base those choices on?

Well, the one observer tells me I need to hold the gear longer and not short shift it...........and the other one change up sooner and down later.
Confused.com

Like I say, ask how you should be able to tell. Are you being prepared for a formal test?

[Cousin Jack]

Depends on your bike and what you are doing.

On the VFR if I was lazy I could use 3rd as an auto, anywhere from about 10 to 100 mph. It wasn't necessarily the best way to use it, but it worked and I could concentrate on other stuff, like lemming peds and other hazards. It doesn't work like that on a CB500.

OTOH if I was 'making progress' it would be very different, and fast cornering involved keeping the revs below 6k or above 7k so the variable stuff didn't upset the bike. Waiting for an overtake involved a shuffle through the pack to hit about 6k, so when you went for it you got a boost at 7k. Cruising on a fast road was something else again, but all of this was about MY bike and how I was riding it. Your bike, and any observer's bike, will be different.

I wonder if it was the old 'gears to go, brakes to slow' mantra much beloved of the IAM? I don't buy that either, it may be appropriate when going very quickly or on the track, but again sometimes, on some bikes, rolling off in the right gear produces just the deceleration you want. If you are worried about traffic behind you can show the a brake light with the rear brake too, but still use the gears for 90% of the retardation.

All IMO of course, other views are available.

[Dodgy69]

In my manual car, I've gotten in the naughty habit of coasting to a stop. From 6 to neutral, well 5, don't use 6 much. I'm fed up with constant gear changes in the car so I'm on the lookout for an auto. Nice big comfy one, maybe an older c220 diesel.

[Mr. Dazzle]

In my manual car, I've gotten in the naughty habit of coasting to a stop. From 6 to neutral, well 5, don't use 6 much. I'm fed up with constant gear changes in the car so I'm on the lookout for an auto. Nice big comfy one, maybe an older c220 diesel.

It's more fuel efficient to come to a stop in gear in most cars. If you go into neutral the engine drops to idle, so it has to spend fuel to keep itself running. Modern cars go into 'fuel cut' when you lift off though, so you're not using any fuel while you slow down. I'm surely that really bothers people Lots of modern cars also preferentially charge the battery when you're engine braking, it's a very weak form of regen braking and it does save a bit of fuel too. In my BMW the 'swingometer' MPG gauge has a little battery symbol below zero to show you when it's charging.



On my bike I can ride the whole journey to work (~45 miles) without using the brakes and just working the gears. I don't go take the piss fast/slow either. I can also do it in my car just about, but the engine braking is far less effective!

[Horse]

Modern cars go into 'fuel cut' when you lift off though, so you're not using any fuel while you slow down.

On some FI bikes there was a very noticeable 'step' as it switched on again, could make slow riding more awkward.

I can also do it in my car just about, but the engine braking is far less effective!

Aerodynamics too?

[Demannu]

You need to (presuming you didn't?) ask how you're supposed to improve, eg what should you base those choices on?

Well, the one observer tells me I need to hold the gear longer and not short shift it...........and the other one change up sooner and down later.
Confused.com

Like I say, ask how you should be able to tell. Are you being prepared for a formal test?

More an informal test, taken with all 3 observers, which makes it interesting as I am being told different things by 2 of the observers.
We're going out for a group ride this weekend, so I'll get no3 to have a watch and see what he thinks.
Bike never labours, it's got so much oomph I could leave it in 3rd all day apart from starts.
Imho, there's not much wrong with my riding skills, but I'm quite happy to have someone give constructive criticism if there is a real issue, however if it gets nit-picky ( which is what it appears to me) then they'll be a member short.
My initial assessment had nothing lower than 'good' and mainly 'excellent', so obviously no real issues.

[Dodgy69]

I reckon my 'coasting to a stop' car method does have it's advantages. In slippery, icy conditions, it's a more gradual and constant, less friction slowing to a stop. Engine braking can increase friction and cause momentary loss of control in these conditions.

Also, how does engine keep running if fuel is cut completely and as @Mr. Dazzle says, regen on braking on road must be very limited if anything noticeable.