How many of you have had professional coaching to improve your road riding

[Hot_Air]

@The Spin Doctor Is your teaching representative? Unfortunately, most bike instructors aren’t as good as you (and doubtless others on here).

I did my CBT a couple of times (once in my youth and again a few years later). SMIDSYs weren’t mentioned, let alone how to avoid them, but they are the Most Common Crash. Is there a lesson plan for SMIDSY avoidance in learner training? It's like teaching skydiving without covering when and how to use your reserve parachute

Filtering wasn’t mentioned. Overtaking on rural roads wasn’t mentioned. Counter-steering was hardly mentioned. And why isn’t the ‘limit point’ on the syllabus (it would have helped my cornering considerably)?

[The Spin Doctor]

@The Spin Doctor Is your teaching representative? Unfortunately, most bike instructors aren’t as good as you (and doubtless others on here).

Well, I think what I taught was pretty standard at Cinque Ports, but then CP had a reputation as being a good - and expensive - training school. CSM - for all their other faults - also had pretty solid standards for instructors. I've still got my CBT training notes - I wrote for myself to act as an aide memoire:

"T junctions are the most popular place to have an accident - and also the place where the accident is least likely to be the rider's fault. Look at the driver waiting to pull out. Look into his eyes. Has he seen you? And if he has, does he know how fast you are going? Will he try to nip out before you get there? Read the road - flying over a crest at high speed so that the driver pulling out has no way of knowing you are there is stupid.

"As you approach a side-junction with a car waiting to pull out, you pass through several zones of possibility. At first you assess the chances of the car pulling out. At this point you still have room to brake. As you get closer, the chances of him seeing you get greater, but the time you have to stop gets smaller. Eventually you get so close you think he can't possibly have missed you, and you're committed anyway because there's no room to brake. Then he pulls out..... The only good thing about cars pulling out is that they usually only do it when there's nothing coming the other way. Don't just realise danger might be there - ACT as if it is. Familiarity does breed contempt - just because nothing has ever pulled out of that driveway before, doesn't mean it won't!"

That was written in 1996, incidentally.

I certainly kept that standard up when we ran B3 in Maidstone, but the two schools I worked for in the interim between leaving CP and getting planning permission on our site in Maidstone were nothing like as good. I did my best, but they were putting trainees on to courses that weren't long enough (presumably to make the sale) and so 'education' played second fiddle to 'drills'.

I did my CBT a couple of times (once in my youth and again a few years later). SMIDSYs weren’t mentioned, let alone how to avoid them, but they are the Most Common Crash. Is there a lesson plan for SMIDSY avoidance in learner training? It's like teaching skydiving without covering when and how to use your reserve parachute

There's no specific lesson plan. SMIDSY isn't in the index of the DVSA's 'Essential Skills'. As I happens, I actually critiqued 'Essential Skills' and its approach to the three standard collisions earlier this year. I talked about the complete lack of advice on junction collisions on my FB page back in January. I wrote:

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The latest edition of the DVSA's 'Essential Skills' book says in the relevant section that a junction "is a point where two or more roads meet. Junctions are hazards where there's a significant risk of an incident occurring. Treat them with care, no matter how easy they look."

That's a pretty good summing-up of the problem, yet riders are continually caught out. Why?

Here's one reason. The section continues by saying we should be looking for "information about the junction ahead, and the level of difficulty".

There follows SEVENTEEN PAGES about how to negotiate junctions...

...which are almost entirely written from the RIDER'S perspective about the 'right way' to ride junctions using the OSM-PSL system (which is - give or take - a slightly modified version of the police system from Roadcraft).

Within those pages, there's remarkably little about what might go wrong at a junction.
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Full article here: https://facebook.com/SurvivalSkills/pos ... 4634734426

Filtering wasn’t mentioned. Overtaking on rural roads wasn’t mentioned. Counter-steering was hardly mentioned. And why isn’t the ‘limit point’ on the syllabus (it would have helped my cornering considerably)?

As I said, filtering is only likely to get a mention if you're training in a congested area. Overtaking is unlikely to be mentioned because other than passing a bicycle, it's unlikely you'll need to pass anything going much more slowly than you. And in reality, you just use the same OSMPSL system you would for passing a stationary car... but leave yourself longer to get back to your side of the road. The idea is that if you learn the SYSTEM, you can apply it flexibly to other hazards. (Now, where have I heard that before )

It's always worth pointing out that from the perspective of the school (and trainer), more COULD be covered in the course if there were MORE TIME... but as we've seen not everyone can be persuaded that training beneficial and who resent having to pay for it.

[ZRX61]

I've had a few coppers inquire where I "learned to ride like that" during the process of giving me a Performance Award.

Does that count?

[Horse]

I've had a few coppers inquire where I "learned to ride like that" during the process of giving me a Performance Award.

Does that count?

Is that why US cops call it "a citation"?

[Beancounter]

Track tuition is a hard one to quantify too, I've had it ... CSS

My one day, road, cornering course effectively included all the elements of CSS Level 1. But with 1:1 coaching for the whole day and for much lower price.

Obviously there were differences: None of the glamour of pits and track, just a car park to start in. No cones on the road corners, you had to learn to identify those points for yourself. And no flag marshals, up to you to decide when to slow.

If Beancounter reads this, he might be able to say whether it was beneficial for him.

FWIW, Spin's 2 day cornering sessions cover far more.

Sorry, late to the party as usual.

The first thing for me to say is that I hadn’t actually arranged the training with Horse. About a year before my day with Horse I had stacked it on a Surrey Scramble, left hand turn into a junction on an unclassified road, going too quickly and ran wide/target fixated. Fortunately I was unhurt and could continue the ride but my confidence was shattered. Arrogantly I thought I could just ride through it and get back to my pre-crash ‘standard’ (not appreciating that that ‘standard’ was still inadequate for such rides). Diablo, my then wife, had been saying to me that she wanted us both to do a training day with Horse. I was still reluctant, I think I was a refusing to acknowledge the problem. Nevertheless, we went out to see Horse one Saturday, my understanding being that it was more for Diablo than me. Once we got to the car park Diablo persuaded me to have a go at the practice drills - walking the upright bike in a circle then doing the same but with the bike leaning slightly into the turn to see just how much tighter you can turn with just a little bit of lean, but the real helpful bit for me was the “pointing your chin to where you want to go” as even in the car park I was cornering smoother, more confidently and more calmly than before. The day made me enjoy riding more than ever before.

My riding has kind of regressed a bit, mainly because of lack of practice, so I’ve joined the local RoSPA group. I’ve had an assessment ride and one observed ride. Have to admit that I’m not warming to it. My observer is a pleasant enough chap, though there are a couple of things that have rankled with me:

(1) First meeting he says that he can answer any riding question because the answer is always “it depends”. He wasn’t being arrogant or condescending but considering I was being told that I need to learn Roadcraft, the “it depends” didn’t stack up;

(2) Also on the first meeting, I get asked why I want to join RoSPA. I say because I want to enjoy my riding again. He keeps pushing, “Any other reasons?”, I have no idea where he’s going with this, then he says “What about being safer?”;

(3) On my assessment ride, I was praised for excellent rearward observations but still scored a 2 out 5 , I think because I did too many lifesavers and didn’t trust my mirrors enough. To be fair I was making an effort to do lifesavers where in normal riding I wouldn’t have done them.

(4) My ‘homework’ was to read the Cornering and Positioning chapters of Roadcraft and put that theory into my practice rides. I have an issue on right handlers, I don’t like being close to the verge, so I make an extra effort to get comfortable but it actually makes my riding rough and clunky and I’m not enjoying it. I go for my first observed ride and I share this with my observer and he says that I don’t actually need to be at the outside of the corner and if I can safely stop in the distance I can see to be clear whilst in the centre of my lane then it’s okay for me to remain there for the corner - why the fuck am I then learning Roadcraft?

I’m going to keep at it because I need a reset but it does feel a little cultish (in my limited experience).

[The Spin Doctor]

I have an issue on right handlers, I don’t like being close to the verge, so I make an extra effort to get comfortable but it actually makes my riding rough and clunky and I’m not enjoying it.

Tip that might help... if you can find a short loop of bends, it's even better. 1) go in a bit slower than usual so you have some attention to spare. Try to keep the bike on the same line right through a bend. Start middle of the lane. Notice where your left / right mirrors are - if you can keep them same position with respect to the centre line / verge on both left / right sides, you're in the middle of the lane! 2) try the same shuffling half a metre to the left - the mirrors will have moved with respect to the centre line and verge, but try to keep the same relative position all the way through the bend. 3) repeat but another half metre to the left.

It'll feel weird to start with (and some riders say "it's distracting" but that's why we're riding a bit slower) but after a bit it becomes something we do in peripheral vision. It's how I recalibrate for riding on the wrong side of the road after a break from visiting the continent.

my observer and he says that I don’t actually need to be at the outside of the corner and if I can safely stop in the distance I can see to be clear whilst in the centre of my lane then it’s okay for me to remain there for the corner - why the fuck am I then learning Roadcraft?

IMO, an arm's length to the dirt is about as close as we ever need to be - and we need to watch out for hidden openings too.

[Horse]

1) go in a bit slower than usual so you have some attention to spare. Try to keep the bike on the same line right through a bend. Start middle of the lane.

This is a good test of entry speed choice when using 'lines', especially on a blind right hander.

Try to ride and remain parallel to the edge of the road. It will highlight when travelling too fast and the instances when you would want to turn in, rather than when the view supports it.

[Horse]

I was cornering smoother, more confidently and more calmly than before. The day made me enjoy riding more than ever before.

Say that again and I'll sue. We trainers have a bad reputation to maintain!

I hope you don't mind being quoted, but your parting comment at the end of the day was: "I've realised that I can't just arrive at corners and deal with them, i need to plan for them."

[Cousin Jack]

Bloody Hell! This internet thing is a PITA.

First it is Spin quoting me, now it is Horse quoting Beancounter. It is a bloody good job I don't do Facebook/Twitter et al.

[Bigyin]

Once we got to the car park Diablo persuaded me to have a go at the practice drills - walking the upright bike in a circle then doing the same but with the bike leaning slightly into the turn to see just how much tighter you can turn with just a little bit of lean, but the real helpful bit for me was the “pointing your chin to where you want to go” as even in the car park I was cornering smoother, more confidently and more calmly than before. The day made me enjoy riding more than ever before.

I must be doing something right as i make a big deal of this on CBT ..... i have an onboard video of Jonny Rea in wet race from Magny Cours from a camera mounted on the dash looking back at him with a clear visor. Superb example of " look where you want to go"

[Horse]

Once we got to the car park Diablo persuaded me to have a go at the practice drills - walking the upright bike in a circle then doing the same but with the bike leaning slightly into the turn to see just how much tighter you can turn with just a little bit of lean, but the real helpful bit for me was the “pointing your chin to where you want to go” as even in the car park I was cornering smoother, more confidently and more calmly than before. The day made me enjoy riding more than ever before.

I must be doing something right as i make a big deal of this on CBT ..... i have an onboard video of Jonny Rea in wet race from Magny Cours from a camera mounted on the dash looking back at him with a clear visor. Superb example of " look where you want to go"

From waaaay before the technology to show that, I had a magazine photo of Jamie Whitham demonstrating what was described as his 'chin in the weeds' riding style.

[Horse]

Bloody Hell! This internet thing is a PITA.

First it is Spin quoting me, now it is Horse quoting Beancounter.

It shows the level of desperation that we have sunk to

[The Spin Doctor]

I was cornering smoother, more confidently and more calmly than before. The day made me enjoy riding more than ever before.

Say that again and I'll sue. We trainers have a bad reputation to maintain!

LOL LOL

I hope you don't mind being quoted, but your parting comment at the end of the day was: "I've realised that I can't just arrive at corners and deal with them, i need to plan for them."

Almost word-for-word what I was saying during last night's online briefing for this evening's on-road session!

[weeksy]

I hope you don't mind being quoted, but your parting comment at the end of the day was: "I've realised that I can't just arrive at corners and deal with them, i need to plan for them."

Says who ? More so than in a car ? or even on a bicycle ?

That's all just part of reading a road.

That's like saying "i can't just arrive at a set of stairs and expect to deal with them" well, you do... you arrive at them, then put one foot higher than the other each time, you get up the stairs.

Corners are no different, you don't arrive at them all at 130mph... you read the road and you go round the corner.

What's the difference between planning and reading a road ? You can't plan 5 corners ahead... because you can only see so far ahead of you (on most roads)

[The Spin Doctor]

That's like saying "i can't just arrive at a set of stairs and expect to deal with them" well, you do... you arrive at them, then put one foot higher than the other each time, you get up the stairs.

Corners are no different, you don't arrive at them all at 130mph... you read the road and you go round the corner.

What's the difference between planning and reading a road ? You can't plan 5 corners ahead... because you can only see so far ahead of you (on most roads)

Reading the road IS planning.

Just as looking at the height of a set of steps, how narrow the steps are, how steeply angled they are and whether they are slippery or covered with a loose-fitting stair runner will give you a big hint about whether or not to hang onto the rail.

If you're not 'reading the road', your observation and planning broke down.

And if you trip up on a set of stairs and tear an ankle ligament (me, ten years ago) then the same applies - I hadn't noticed that the steps were a little uneven in height.

[weeksy]

That's like saying "i can't just arrive at a set of stairs and expect to deal with them" well, you do... you arrive at them, then put one foot higher than the other each time, you get up the stairs.

Corners are no different, you don't arrive at them all at 130mph... you read the road and you go round the corner.

What's the difference between planning and reading a road ? You can't plan 5 corners ahead... because you can only see so far ahead of you (on most roads)

Reading the road IS planning.

Just as looking at the height of a set of steps, how narrow the steps are, how steeply angled they are and whether they are slippery or covered with a loose-fitting stair runner will give you a big hint

So what you're saying is..

To ride a motorbike you need to look at the road ahead and decide how fast to go ?

[The Spin Doctor]

So what you're saying is..

To ride a motorbike you need to look at the road ahead and decide how fast to go ?

No.

You look at the road ahead and decide how slow you should go.

There's a difference.

And of course, there are plenty of riders who don't achieve that successfully. If they did, we wouldn't have around 50% of all biking fatalities happening on bends, would we?

[weeksy]

You look at the road ahead and decide how slow you should go.

There's a difference.

And of course, there are plenty of riders who don't achieve that successfully. If they did, we wouldn't have around 50% of all biking fatalities happening on bends, would we?

LOL sure mate.

[Beancounter]

I have an issue on right handlers, I don’t like being close to the verge, so I make an extra effort to get comfortable but it actually makes my riding rough and clunky and I’m not enjoying it.

Tip that might help... if you can find a short loop of bends, it's even better. 1) go in a bit slower than usual so you have some attention to spare. Try to keep the bike on the same line right through a bend. Start middle of the lane. Notice where your left / right mirrors are - if you can keep them same position with respect to the centre line / verge on both left / right sides, you're in the middle of the lane! 2) try the same shuffling half a metre to the left - the mirrors will have moved with respect to the centre line and verge, but try to keep the same relative position all the way through the bend. 3) repeat but another half metre to the left.

It'll feel weird to start with (and some riders say "it's distracting" but that's why we're riding a bit slower) but after a bit it becomes something we do in peripheral vision. It's how I recalibrate for riding on the wrong side of the road after a break from visiting the continent.

Thanks, Happy to give that a try and report back.

I was cornering smoother, more confidently and more calmly than before. The day made me enjoy riding more than ever before.

Say that again and I'll sue. We trainers have a bad reputation to maintain!

I hope you don't mind being quoted, but your parting comment at the end of the day was: "I've realised that I can't just arrive at corners and deal with them, i need to plan for them."

Happy to be quoted.

Once we got to the car park Diablo persuaded me to have a go at the practice drills - walking the upright bike in a circle then doing the same but with the bike leaning slightly into the turn to see just how much tighter you can turn with just a little bit of lean, but the real helpful bit for me was the “pointing your chin to where you want to go” as even in the car park I was cornering smoother, more confidently and more calmly than before. The day made me enjoy riding more than ever before.

I must be doing something right as i make a big deal of this on CBT ..... i have an onboard video of Jonny Rea in wet race from Magny Cours from a camera mounted on the dash looking back at him with a clear visor. Superb example of " look where you want to go"

When my missus went to do a refresher day with the same CBT instructor she happened to mention that I'd been "banging on" about vanishing point and pointing her chin in the direction she needs to go, her instructor was very dismissive and said she didn't need to know any of that at her level.

[Hot_Air]

When my missus went to do a refresher day with the same CBT instructor she happened to mention that I'd been "banging on" about vanishing point and pointing her chin in the direction she needs to go, her instructor was very dismissive and said she didn't need to know any of that at her level.

It doesn't matter whether it's CBT, DAS or IAM; there are the good, the bad and the ugly instructors. (I'm not saying who's ugly )

IMO, it's an essential and basic riding skill to point your chin (or at least look) in the direction you need to go. And why is the vanishing point not even mentioned in the Riding: the Essential Skills book?