How many of you have had professional coaching to improve your road riding

[David]

IIRC at 70 your GP has to say you're ok. That's it.

No, at and after 70 YOU have to say you are OK. Your GP is supposed to tell DVLA if he thinks you are NOT OK, but since most people never get to see their GP these days................

The only real difference is that when I hit 70 I lost my entitlement to drive heavier stuff and minibuses unless I took a medical at my expense. I can only drive stuff up to 3.5 tons now, it used to include stuff that was really a medium truck. 12.5 tons IIRC.

Cousin Jack is correct...
signed


A fellow septuagenarian also deprived of chunky truck rights.

[Cousin Jack]

IIRC at 70 your GP has to say you're ok. That's it.

No, at and after 70 YOU have to say you are OK. Your GP is supposed to tell DVLA if he thinks you are NOT OK, but since most people never get to see their GP these days................

The only real difference is that when I hit 70 I lost my entitlement to drive heavier stuff and minibuses unless I took a medical at my expense. I can only drive stuff up to 3.5 tons now, it used to include stuff that was really a medium truck. 12.5 tons IIRC.

Cousin Jack is correct...
signed


A fellow septuagenarian also deprived of chunky truck rights.

The good news is that I am allowed to ride 200bhp/200mph superbikes on the basis of a brief test entirely within a 30mph limit on a elderly and asthmatic 12bhp bike, observed by a pedestrian.

[The Spin Doctor]

The good news is that I am allowed to ride 200bhp/200mph superbikes on the basis of a brief test entirely within a 30mph limit on a elderly and asthmatic 12bhp bike, observed by a pedestrian.

Shhhh. Don't tell everyone or they might think it's a good idea to take that away too!

[David]

The good news is that I am allowed to ride 200bhp/200mph superbikes on the basis of a brief test entirely within a 30mph limit on a elderly and asthmatic 12bhp bike, observed by a pedestrian.

Shhhh. Don't tell everyone or they might think it's a good idea to take that away too!

Me too!

[Horse]

The basic three types of crash that riders get involved in haven't really changed over the years: SMIDSY, bends, overtaking.

[Rockburner]

The good news is that I am allowed to ride 200bhp/200mph superbikes on the basis of a brief test entirely within a 30mph limit on a elderly and asthmatic 12bhp bike, observed by a pedestrian.

No one did though.

We all started riding on tuned two strokes, so things like clutch slip weren't optional, you literally couldn't ride the bikes without it, and no one would have dreamed of passing their test and getting a superbike, we all went to 250's or 350's.

well - YOU did.
Personally my first bike after the test was a Guzzi V50, then a Ducati Pantah, then a ZXR400. My brothers both went for 10 year old RD350s iirc.
I would have given my eye-teeth for a 916 just after my test, and possibly would have had one if I had the cash. (spoiler... I didn't!)

The attitude is different now, 600's are seen as starter bikes and everyone wants the most powerful thing they can get. IMHO the riding capability has gone downhill because of it, people rely on power rather than momentum and sharp brakes rather than foresight.

I'm not going to disagree with that at all.

[Cousin Jack]

The attitude is different now, 600's are seen as starter bikes and everyone wants the most powerful thing they can get. IMHO the riding capability has gone downhill because of it, people rely on power rather than momentum and sharp brakes rather than foresight.

Having just switched to a 500cc/47bhp bike I can confirm that big bikes are not necessary for fun. Last time out I stopped beside a CBR500, the
faired version of mine and got chatting with the owner, as you do. His other bike was a 1000cc sports bike, and he reckoned the 500 was more fun. The only thing I miss about a big bike is the mile munching ability on M'ways, and that is only A to B stuff, boring as hell. On 90% of interesting roads the limit is set by me, not the bike. Smaller and lighter is the way to go.

[The Spin Doctor]

We all started riding on tuned two strokes

CB125S, CB250K4, CB400F... etc.

All four strokes.

[Mr. Dazzle]

It's not like it was 30-40yrs ago when we all grew up riding bikes

To be fair, "the man" has gone some way to addressing that. It's alot more involved getting a licence now isn't it? So on some level at least the system agrees with you.

My dad can ride any bike he likes, all he had to do was ride around the block.
My mum can ride any bike she likes, all she had to do was a 35 minute test.
I can ride any bike I like, all I had to do was one theory test, one 35 minute practical test and serve a 2 year power restriction.

And so on.

[The Spin Doctor]

Well, well... there I was, digging through some old stuff and what should I find but a short review of CJ's course with me from years back?

"Kevin’s teaching method is quite a lot to do with asking questions, you supply your own answers, so you actually believe them. I never got into the useless territory that often happens when people try to ‘teach’ me stuff, where they tell me their view and I hold a different one, and then we argue. That is not to say Kevin agrees with me on everything, but his method does really cope with awkward sods like me pretty well."

[Hot_Air]

The basic three types of crash that riders get involved in haven't really changed over the years: SMIDSY, bends, overtaking.

In my DAS experience, none of these three were covered:

• SMIDSY: Not mentioned once during my DAS training.

• Bends: DAS neither mentioned the ‘limit point’ (why isn’t it in the syllabus?) nor explained counter-steering adequately.

• Overtaking: Never mentioned once during my DAS training, leaving me to learn filtering and overtaking on rural roads by making it as I went along (what could possibly go wrong?)

If I hadn’t stumbled on advanced training, I’d have had some bone crunching experiences by now.

[The Spin Doctor]

The basic three types of crash that riders get involved in haven't really changed over the years: SMIDSY, bends, overtaking.

In my DAS experience, none of these three were covered:

• SMIDSY: Not mentioned once during my DAS training.

• Bends: DAS neither mentioned the ‘limit point’ (why isn’t it in the syllabus?) nor explained counter-steering adequately.

• Overtaking: Never mentioned once during my DAS training, leaving me to learn filtering and overtaking on rural roads by making it as I went along (what could possibly go wrong?)

If I hadn’t stumbled on advanced training, I’d have had some bone crunching experiences by now.

SMIDSY... the need to 'see and be seen' is covered on CBT as is the use of hi-vis and DRLs but whether you got any real explanation of why is down to the instructor. I would explain why riders need to take wider lines past blind junctions on CBT and at more length on DAS.

BENDS... training down at Lydd, I used to take the trainees up to Rye and back for a nice run round a bendy road before doing the final 45 mins or so of the road ride bashing out left and right turns. No specific cornering 'training' but 'talked through' slow in, cautiously round, fast(ish) out.

OVERTAKING... covered extensively for dual carriageways on DAS in theory and practice, talked about 'in theory' for single carriageways.

FILTERING... depends where you train - didn't need to filter when training in Ashford or Folkestone, but covered in detail when I was based at Catford as we'd never have got back to the training school without filtering. Sometimes got a mention up in Rochester if the traffic was solid.

[The Spin Doctor]

I'm not even slightly surprised to find out that you started on old mans bikes

And I'm not in the least surprised by your attitude.

[Yorick]

I'm not even slightly surprised to find out that you started on old mans bikes

And I'm not in the least surprised by your attitude.

I think he was fishing and he got a little nibble

[Hot_Air]

@The Spin Doctor Is your teaching representative? Unfortunately, most bike instructors aren’t as good as you (and doubtless others on here).

I did my CBT a couple of times (once in my youth and again a few years later). SMIDSYs weren’t mentioned, let alone how to avoid them, but they are the Most Common Crash. Is there a lesson plan for SMIDSY avoidance in learner training? It's like teaching skydiving without covering when and how to use your reserve parachute

Filtering wasn’t mentioned. Overtaking on rural roads wasn’t mentioned. Counter-steering was hardly mentioned. And why isn’t the ‘limit point’ on the syllabus (it would have helped my cornering considerably)?

[The Spin Doctor]

@The Spin Doctor Is your teaching representative? Unfortunately, most bike instructors aren’t as good as you (and doubtless others on here).

Well, I think what I taught was pretty standard at Cinque Ports, but then CP had a reputation as being a good - and expensive - training school. CSM - for all their other faults - also had pretty solid standards for instructors. I've still got my CBT training notes - I wrote for myself to act as an aide memoire:

"T junctions are the most popular place to have an accident - and also the place where the accident is least likely to be the rider's fault. Look at the driver waiting to pull out. Look into his eyes. Has he seen you? And if he has, does he know how fast you are going? Will he try to nip out before you get there? Read the road - flying over a crest at high speed so that the driver pulling out has no way of knowing you are there is stupid.

"As you approach a side-junction with a car waiting to pull out, you pass through several zones of possibility. At first you assess the chances of the car pulling out. At this point you still have room to brake. As you get closer, the chances of him seeing you get greater, but the time you have to stop gets smaller. Eventually you get so close you think he can't possibly have missed you, and you're committed anyway because there's no room to brake. Then he pulls out..... The only good thing about cars pulling out is that they usually only do it when there's nothing coming the other way. Don't just realise danger might be there - ACT as if it is. Familiarity does breed contempt - just because nothing has ever pulled out of that driveway before, doesn't mean it won't!"

That was written in 1996, incidentally.

I certainly kept that standard up when we ran B3 in Maidstone, but the two schools I worked for in the interim between leaving CP and getting planning permission on our site in Maidstone were nothing like as good. I did my best, but they were putting trainees on to courses that weren't long enough (presumably to make the sale) and so 'education' played second fiddle to 'drills'.

I did my CBT a couple of times (once in my youth and again a few years later). SMIDSYs weren’t mentioned, let alone how to avoid them, but they are the Most Common Crash. Is there a lesson plan for SMIDSY avoidance in learner training? It's like teaching skydiving without covering when and how to use your reserve parachute

There's no specific lesson plan. SMIDSY isn't in the index of the DVSA's 'Essential Skills'. As I happens, I actually critiqued 'Essential Skills' and its approach to the three standard collisions earlier this year. I talked about the complete lack of advice on junction collisions on my FB page back in January. I wrote:

----------
The latest edition of the DVSA's 'Essential Skills' book says in the relevant section that a junction "is a point where two or more roads meet. Junctions are hazards where there's a significant risk of an incident occurring. Treat them with care, no matter how easy they look."

That's a pretty good summing-up of the problem, yet riders are continually caught out. Why?

Here's one reason. The section continues by saying we should be looking for "information about the junction ahead, and the level of difficulty".

There follows SEVENTEEN PAGES about how to negotiate junctions...

...which are almost entirely written from the RIDER'S perspective about the 'right way' to ride junctions using the OSM-PSL system (which is - give or take - a slightly modified version of the police system from Roadcraft).

Within those pages, there's remarkably little about what might go wrong at a junction.
----------

Full article here: https://facebook.com/SurvivalSkills/pos ... 4634734426

Filtering wasn’t mentioned. Overtaking on rural roads wasn’t mentioned. Counter-steering was hardly mentioned. And why isn’t the ‘limit point’ on the syllabus (it would have helped my cornering considerably)?

As I said, filtering is only likely to get a mention if you're training in a congested area. Overtaking is unlikely to be mentioned because other than passing a bicycle, it's unlikely you'll need to pass anything going much more slowly than you. And in reality, you just use the same OSMPSL system you would for passing a stationary car... but leave yourself longer to get back to your side of the road. The idea is that if you learn the SYSTEM, you can apply it flexibly to other hazards. (Now, where have I heard that before )

It's always worth pointing out that from the perspective of the school (and trainer), more COULD be covered in the course if there were MORE TIME... but as we've seen not everyone can be persuaded that training beneficial and who resent having to pay for it.

[ZRX61]

I've had a few coppers inquire where I "learned to ride like that" during the process of giving me a Performance Award.

Does that count?

[Horse]

I've had a few coppers inquire where I "learned to ride like that" during the process of giving me a Performance Award.

Does that count?

Is that why US cops call it "a citation"?

[Beancounter]

Track tuition is a hard one to quantify too, I've had it ... CSS

My one day, road, cornering course effectively included all the elements of CSS Level 1. But with 1:1 coaching for the whole day and for much lower price.

Obviously there were differences: None of the glamour of pits and track, just a car park to start in. No cones on the road corners, you had to learn to identify those points for yourself. And no flag marshals, up to you to decide when to slow.

If Beancounter reads this, he might be able to say whether it was beneficial for him.

FWIW, Spin's 2 day cornering sessions cover far more.

Sorry, late to the party as usual.

The first thing for me to say is that I hadn’t actually arranged the training with Horse. About a year before my day with Horse I had stacked it on a Surrey Scramble, left hand turn into a junction on an unclassified road, going too quickly and ran wide/target fixated. Fortunately I was unhurt and could continue the ride but my confidence was shattered. Arrogantly I thought I could just ride through it and get back to my pre-crash ‘standard’ (not appreciating that that ‘standard’ was still inadequate for such rides). Diablo, my then wife, had been saying to me that she wanted us both to do a training day with Horse. I was still reluctant, I think I was a refusing to acknowledge the problem. Nevertheless, we went out to see Horse one Saturday, my understanding being that it was more for Diablo than me. Once we got to the car park Diablo persuaded me to have a go at the practice drills - walking the upright bike in a circle then doing the same but with the bike leaning slightly into the turn to see just how much tighter you can turn with just a little bit of lean, but the real helpful bit for me was the “pointing your chin to where you want to go” as even in the car park I was cornering smoother, more confidently and more calmly than before. The day made me enjoy riding more than ever before.

My riding has kind of regressed a bit, mainly because of lack of practice, so I’ve joined the local RoSPA group. I’ve had an assessment ride and one observed ride. Have to admit that I’m not warming to it. My observer is a pleasant enough chap, though there are a couple of things that have rankled with me:

(1) First meeting he says that he can answer any riding question because the answer is always “it depends”. He wasn’t being arrogant or condescending but considering I was being told that I need to learn Roadcraft, the “it depends” didn’t stack up;

(2) Also on the first meeting, I get asked why I want to join RoSPA. I say because I want to enjoy my riding again. He keeps pushing, “Any other reasons?”, I have no idea where he’s going with this, then he says “What about being safer?”;

(3) On my assessment ride, I was praised for excellent rearward observations but still scored a 2 out 5 , I think because I did too many lifesavers and didn’t trust my mirrors enough. To be fair I was making an effort to do lifesavers where in normal riding I wouldn’t have done them.

(4) My ‘homework’ was to read the Cornering and Positioning chapters of Roadcraft and put that theory into my practice rides. I have an issue on right handlers, I don’t like being close to the verge, so I make an extra effort to get comfortable but it actually makes my riding rough and clunky and I’m not enjoying it. I go for my first observed ride and I share this with my observer and he says that I don’t actually need to be at the outside of the corner and if I can safely stop in the distance I can see to be clear whilst in the centre of my lane then it’s okay for me to remain there for the corner - why the fuck am I then learning Roadcraft?

I’m going to keep at it because I need a reset but it does feel a little cultish (in my limited experience).

[The Spin Doctor]

I have an issue on right handlers, I don’t like being close to the verge, so I make an extra effort to get comfortable but it actually makes my riding rough and clunky and I’m not enjoying it.

Tip that might help... if you can find a short loop of bends, it's even better. 1) go in a bit slower than usual so you have some attention to spare. Try to keep the bike on the same line right through a bend. Start middle of the lane. Notice where your left / right mirrors are - if you can keep them same position with respect to the centre line / verge on both left / right sides, you're in the middle of the lane! 2) try the same shuffling half a metre to the left - the mirrors will have moved with respect to the centre line and verge, but try to keep the same relative position all the way through the bend. 3) repeat but another half metre to the left.

It'll feel weird to start with (and some riders say "it's distracting" but that's why we're riding a bit slower) but after a bit it becomes something we do in peripheral vision. It's how I recalibrate for riding on the wrong side of the road after a break from visiting the continent.

my observer and he says that I don’t actually need to be at the outside of the corner and if I can safely stop in the distance I can see to be clear whilst in the centre of my lane then it’s okay for me to remain there for the corner - why the fuck am I then learning Roadcraft?

IMO, an arm's length to the dirt is about as close as we ever need to be - and we need to watch out for hidden openings too.