How many of you have had professional coaching to improve your road riding

[Supermofo]

Is that actually drinkable? I say that from a position of liking Ghost Ship - one of my tipples of choice at the beer fest at Broadstairs folk week.

I really like Ghost Ship but the 0.5 didn't really taste of Ghost Ship imo . It was OK and did the job of giving me a beer flavour without the alcohol but real Ghost Ship is much nicer tasting.

But others obviously like it so might be worth a try to see for yourself.

[Rockburner]

I’ve been watching all this heated debate from a distance….genuinely bemused and by people’s anger towards post test training !!??

I don't think it's anger towards the training itself, if anything it's anger towards the attitude of the training bodies: which seems to universally be "We're right, you're wrong. Ya boo sucks unless you join us."

The above post by hot air sums it up perfectly….if you’re able to put your ego aside….what have you got to lose ?? I would agree that standards differ greatly and it’s important to do your homework and get the right training

You need to put ego aside to learn anything, that's pretty much a given (i think). The somewhat hypocritical seeming attitude of some advanced riders though: ie all ego, displays a certain disparity though.

[Dodgy69]

Good thread this...

Thinking out the box, bike operation is basically the same whatever size bike. Would it be more beneficial to do 'big bike training' or part of it, on a private track, being able to explore the performance of big bike. Understanding how to get around the faster corner, greater brake power, proper acceleration.

Bbt on public roads must be very limited in differance from 'little bike training' because of the law. I believe there's no substitute for experience in a lot of thing's we do. If training is designed to fast forward our experience then great, go for it, or just learn from riding and getting older.

[Horse]

I really like Ghost Ship but the 0.5 didn't really taste of Ghost Ship imo . It was OK and did the job of giving me a beer flavour without the alcohol but real Ghost Ship is much nicer tasting.

But others obviously like it so might be worth a try to see for yourself.

If you don't think of it as 'beer', and instead think of it as an alternative soft drink and if you start from that low expectation, it's ok.

[Cousin Jack]

I’m flummoxed: why does advanced training provoke heated debate?

I am equally flummoxed. It isn't compulsory.

If you want it, and are prepared to pay, JFDI.
If you want to go the IAM route, JFDI

People who don't want it/don't believe it will help them/think they are perfect can opt out.

[Horse]

Good thread this...

Thinking out the box, bike operation is basically the same whatever size bike. Would it be more beneficial to do 'big bike training' or part of it, on a private track, being able to explore the performance of big bike. Understanding how to get around the faster corner, greater brake power, proper acceleration.

UK training is often very different to other regimes. The one I had extensive experience of was the US 's. There, all training and testing is done off-road. There are training exceptions, but the MOST (their L test) is off road. Also, some (a few) organisations use go kart tracks for cornering skills.

The L course was 2.5 days, incredibly regimented (to time, syllabus and script) with little or no allowance for an individual's variations in speed of learning.

Content was split into key skills (starting stopping shifting turning) and advanced skills (swerving, emergency stops, etc).

'Road riding' aspects (lane changes, cornering) were all covered in off-road exercises.

As well as riding, training methods included videos, discussion and 'armchair exercises' - literally rehearsing specific aspects in the classroom. The format would be theory, then riding.


However, there's a massive problem in trying to introduce off-road training at a large scale in the uk. And that's facilities.

There are very few good off-road facilities and they are expensive, very expensive.

That said, there are some organisations that use a hybrid road / track format. Possibly Rapid for bikes, High Performance Club for cars. Even then, Rapid may be piggybacking on existing track days. i2i Academy and Hopp both do off-road too.

i2i is interesting, their off-road stuff is very different to anything else that I'm aware of.

But there's a potential hitch too with trying to arrange something hybrid. Because of the costs, you would be with an organisation that had buying clout, and you would then have to ride their preferred way. By the sounds of some comments made, they would struggle to convince people of the value.

And value is another point: what would you want to gain?

Skill? In what? Going faster on the same bit of road?

There are skills that many riders could usefully work on that can really only be done off-road: high speed braking in bends, for example. But improved skills bring the risk of riding faster because you 'know' you have those skills. But if you don't practice, they will fade, you would rely on skills that you no longer possessed.

[The Spin Doctor]

But there's a potential hitch too with trying to arrange something hybrid. Because of the costs... By the sounds of some comments made, they would struggle to convince people of the value.

One of the complaints I've heard about the CSS is that there's a lot of 'sitting about' time, because of the high ratio of attendees to instructors. ISTR that CSS prefer to refer to it as time for reflective thinking or some such, but I remember reading one very negative review on a forum (not one of 'ours' btw) that called the time wasted.

[Dodgy69]

Riding motorbikes on UK roads isn't without risk and never will be, likely to get worse if self driving car's get the go ahead. We all know it, but still do it. If I wasn't happy with that risk, I wouldn't do it.

Can we reduce the risk through training. For those who believe they can, go for it.

[Horse]

Can we reduce the risk through training. For those who believe they can, go for it.

It doesn't need to be training, you - anyone - can do it yourself.

Look for the iffy situations, be honest and realistic - decide what could happen, do something about it.

That's not difficult, you don't need an observer, coach or instructor, although they might help you with options that you (everyone, not just 'you') hadn't thought of.

As I said earlier, for high risk it's smidsys, loss of control in bends, overtaking (inc filtering). If you knew that already, then you probably won't get caught out, will you? And doesn't every rider know that?

[Horse]

That's jolly civil of them. Is there an opt out card?

Give us the list of all the things you know absolutely
about, we'll circulate your description to the relevant people

[Cousin Jack]

That's jolly civil of them. Is there an opt out card?

Something I can pull out when one of those types creeps up to me at a bike meeting or in the sailing club, or as I walk past a meeting of vegan people - it would be very handy to whip it out and say "Get thee back, I've opted out".

I didn't realise that you were such a snowflake. You could always try saying "I disagree"

Or you could try "Fuck off" if you were feeling brutal.

[Horse]

] I cannot prove to know absolutely about these things, so I guess I will just have suffer you types that think you do.

Yet again, you seem to have the wrong idea about me.

You're right, it is annoying continually being pestered by people who think they know better

[Dodgy69]

It's a good debate, for and against, let's keep it that way, respectfully.

[Hot_Air]

when one of those types creeps up to me at a bike meeting or in the sailing club, or as I walk past a meeting of vegan people

Those vegan IAM sailors get everywhere

It’s hard to keep the pesky rascals at bay, but have you tried garlic? I had a garlic naan last night, and @The Spin Doctor hasn’t crept up on me even once today.

[Whysub]

I had a superb time in my surveillance career but you had the job i always wanted. I tried to get on a team with bikes a couple of times but due to a personality clash with someone who led that team i was blocked and told not to bother applying anymore which lasted for over 20 years. I would have only got that role if i left and transferred to a different force or organisation. Stupid really as i knew i could do a decent job and a one of the guys that got the ticket was a brand new license holder within the team (when advertised it required 3 years experience on a bike 600cc plus ) and i never ever found out why he had the issue with me as nobody would tell me apart from "He doesnt want you on the team" despite me working well with others from the same team

Ah well ..... life turned out ok but would have been fun to have had a go

I was lucky to get on a bike course within 12 months of joining my job (I did the advanced car course within 7 months). I was in my own team in London but would get requests to work with the bike from teams all over the UK.

Everyone knows their local roads, and when under training my instructors knew theirs. One of the things taught is to identify lots of things that you see, so even on roads I had never ridden before, I could make "good progress" anywhere. A few times on refresher courses we entered London. It was then obvioysly clear that the instructors were very uncomfortable with filtering the way you have to in London to make progress. I loved leaving them miles behind, as they did to me on the roads they knew like the back of their hands.

In 1991 I remember telling the IAM guy about counter steering but I didn't know it was called that, I had great difficulty explaining to him that before I tipped into a bend I tried to turn the handlebars the opposite way and it made the bike tip in. I remember him and my dad telling me that I was going to kill myself doing stupid things like that.

It was only many years later I read about it in a magazine and realised there was a name for it.

The advanced riding guys (mostly policemen) my dad rode with told me I'd be dead in six months. I stopped going out with them in the end.

Countersteering is something you do naturally, but when someone tells you what it is and what you do, its easy then to push/pull the bars and you feel it. It was never, ever mentioned on my first course and first few refreshers, but came in for discussion and practice in 2004 or so.

And trail braking is also something that can occur naturally (at least it did for me). On my initial course the instructors kept commenting that my brake light was still on going through some bends. It was something I just did, and I think I just felt comfortable letting the brake off when still in the corner. I thought I was being critisised for it, which then affected my riding when I consciously tried to stop doing it. Happy to say that on subsequent course it was reported as just "something that I did". I believe trail braking, like countersteering, is something that is now at least discussed on the courses.

And how many of us have actually given their ABS a proper test? After a few runs up and down a runway using rear brake only, front brake only and then both together, the final run was to ride down an airport runway at over 110mph and then put on both brakes as hard as you can. Quite scary the first high speed run. And the big differences between the systems on a boxer BMW and a VFR1200. Also seeing what happens with ABS whilst doing slow speed manoeuvres.

Over here the instructor is in a car following the bike

Same here in Spain. Quite amusing to see.

I have been thinking over the last couple of days that had I not been in the job I was in, would I have taken any training? Hand on heart, I can say probably not. But having had my training I can see that everyone will.learn something IF they find that training interesting, and that the instructor is not a patronising fool.

Indeed, Spin very kindly came to our office and had a discussion with a number of our staff who had not been riding long. It wasn't a "you must do this" talk, but a proper 9 way discussion. The feedback from all those that attended was very positive, and I would have like to have arranged more, but those "higher up" would not allow it on the premises again. Bastards (I can say that now I'm retired).

[Dodgy69]

Maybe, it's just difficult to encourage training on something folk have already passed on.

[Horse]

Maybe, it's just difficult to encourage training on something folk have already passed on.

See my much earlier comments about the current L training and its potential faults.

[Hot_Air]

L-training may have its faults, but @Dodgy knees is right: it’s not easy to persuade some people to take training after they have passed an initial test.

However, image and reputation matter too. BikeSafe might only be a rudimentary intro to advanced training. But BikeSafe has a highly positive reputation, and it’s become popular through word of mouth. Rapid Training lives up to its name, which has given it a cool vibe among the cognoscenti. In contrast, the IAM has a polarising reputation (people’s experiences vary considerably, depending on what their IAM tutor is like).

[Bigyin]

I was fully aware that when I did my test it only taught me how to ride a bike to pass the test, not how to actually ride a bike (although my instructor was really good and probably gave me more info than the test syllabus required).

As a former CBT / DAS instructor, I can categorically state that's simply not the case.

The skills you learn on a basic training course cover most of everything you'll ever do on a bike. Can you operate the clutch and gears, use the throttle and brakes? You were taught that on CBT. Ridden in a town? You learned how on basic training! Negotiated a roundabout? You were taught that on basic training. Ridden round a hairpin bend in the mountains? You were taught the skills round the cones on CBT.

It may not have been explicitly explained, but the CORE SKILLS are all learned with your basic instructor.

Yes, you probably have - almost CERTAINLY have - REFINED those skills with more experience... but without the basic training to give you the underpinnings, it's a much tougher and longer job. I know that, because I taught myself to ride since there was no training option available at the time. I learned but it was accompanied by plenty of scraping noises and the occasional trip to hospital. One or two of the crashes I was lucky to survive.

And in my opinion, the training has got better. DAS teaches riders to deal with the weight and at least some of the power of the kind of machine they'll end up riding - I was instructing when DAS was introduced and it was a huge step forward in terms of the necessary machine control. We also had to up our game as instructors! And I think it produced better technically prepared riders (though there's arguably a problem with over-confidence). Compared with getting a test pass on a 11hp 125, riders have to work far harder to get a pass on the DAS bikes. With a good DAS pass in your pocket, you were most of the way to IAM standard back in 1997. It's no coincidence that the IAM have had to up their own game!

But basic training is not perfect. CBT is totally inadequate as preparation for the road. And DAS still falls short in three areas.

- the off-road collision avoidance elements are totally divorced from reality. Few riders completing the swerve element of Mod 1 seem to be aware that it's a collision avoidance manoeuvre because they as simply dodging cones, whilst the e-stop becomes a game of beating the speed gun. And that explains why novice riders who in theory have the skills have little idea where, when and how to apply them.

- there's no motorway training - though this will be a tough fix as there are many parts of the country where there are no motorways to ride on!

- on-road fails to cover one very vital element. Cornering skills - including counter-steering - are woefully addressed.

I agree with pretty much everything in that including the failures especially the lack of explanation of counter steering for the "avoidance"

Cones? No recollection of cones. We rode around a car park to make sure we could stay on the bike then went out on the road that afternoon. Closest I got to a hairpin was learning to do a U-Turn (badly) for my test - I definitely wasn't taught clutch control!!

Sounds like the training you received was woeful ..... the first thing you should have drilled is the clutch control. Without that slow speed control is pretty much a lucky dip if you manage it or not and there will be more failures than success.

IF you had been taught it before going on the road you wouldnt have wheelied out of the junction, you would have been able to master a u turn comfortably etc etc.

I do my best with those looking to move onto DAS when they attend for CBT toget their clutch control as good as it can be in the time i have as i know it makes the task easier for my DAS colleagues when the student comes back in and tries to ride a 600 at slow speed. If they cant comtrol the revs and clutch (and rear brake) then Mod 1 test becomes very difficult

[Yorick]

On phone so CBA to quote Whysub properly.

But trail braking is a great skill. I enjoyed showing pupils on track as not summat you can teach repetitively on the road.