How many of you have had professional coaching to improve your road riding

[The Spin Doctor]

I agree. In a golf context I was never quite good enough to turn Pro bit I was a very good coach.

My brother tried to teach me. He stopped trying when I threatened to hit him with a club. He was a tolerably good player and a completely crap coach

[Mussels]

I did a session with Spin a few months after I passed my test, there was no preaching involved. We rode a long way to find interesting roads and I had a great day out and got some pointers on road positioning so I could get round corners quicker, though he may have said safer.
Completely different to the 2 day Met police riding training that felt like I volunteered for a speed awareness course.

I'd happily do something like the Spin session in my car now if I thought I could find a car instructor with a similar relaxed attitude.

[Noggin]

Personally I think everyone would benefit from a TD, if only to see how much you can do with the bike (in a limited way in novice!) without the risk of road furniture or oncoming traffic - but it isn't for everyone

But how much more would they gain from a session on the track with a riding coach to help them "see how much they can do"?

Should have said - benefit from a TD with one or two sessions of instruction!! I have instruction in the second session and usually the one after lunch!!

Personally I think everyone would benefit from a TD, if only to see how much you can do with the bike (in a limited way in novice!) without the risk of road furniture or oncoming traffic - but it isn't for everyone

But how much more would they gain from a session on the track with a riding coach to help them "see how much they can do"?

Can the coach keep up?

Track tuition is a hard one to quantify too, I've had it, both CSS and another, I went faster when Couch called me names and told me to follow him faster or give up and sell my bike.

Oh totally - it depends who is 'instructing'. I've had a couple of instructors that didn't really do much for me (namely one that took me out after a fairly big slide/crash at Portimao when I needed to rebuild some confidence - his comment at the end of the session was "well you were way slower and not as relaxed as you were when I took you out on the first day" - no shit sherlock - I threw my bike down the track between then and now and missed a day and a half because of a hospital trip and not being able to get my hand in my glove!! )

In general the instructors I had were mates or somehow we just seemed to get on. Much more - "follow what I do, then I'll follow, when I overtake, follow what I do and we'll debrief after the session". Every time I was pushed, on different tracks. So, more like what you experienced with Couchy but they were a bit kinder to me!!

I don't want someone to baby me on track, I want to be pushed and learn how to achieve what they are pushing me for. And in general, that's what I got - and for free!

Had I not smashed my shoulder, the next goal was that me and a friend were going to book a day with a private coach on track - much more intensive and way more feedback.

But, I know I'm not quick in a straight line. I know I'm pretty quick in corners but that I could be a lot quicker. So I have things I want to learn. Then I get told by the instructor what I need to do better to help (body position is a big challenge for me)


I think I'm pretty reasonable on the road - despite throwing the TL at an Astra 4 years ago, I pretty much know why that happened - but if, when I get back on a bike I find I'm lacking in confidence in areas or (hopefully not) in general, then I will find someone to help me because that isn't how I want to ride. I know I will take a fair bit of time to ride on the road the way I did (maybe never exactly the same, wrong side of the road and mad French drivers) but I won't rush and I will ask for help to relearn some of the skills I might have lost. But I want to feel confident that I can go out and have fun, feel pretty safe and get home wearing a big grin!


Because I've ridden with people who were so so good on a bike on the road, I've always been aware that I can improve - so I've always been open to learning more.
But then, I didn't get my first bike till I was 32.
Most of you guys have been riding since you were kids, doing track days and racing since you could first get to a track, so I totally get there is a huge difference - you've all been riding forever, you've not had any major incidents, you have fun, you feel safe - why do you need to change. I'm not in quite the same place

[Horse]

However, I changed my views on the type of training that I provided. I ditched formal 'advanced test' training, moving instead to more of targeted courses - problem solving, or improving specific areas.

'Riding' is a classic example of Donald Rumsfeld's 'knowns and unknowns'. Many riders are completely oblivious to how easier riding could be, or how much more control they could have.

There’s no way my riding could be easier, I’m completely relaxed at all times and always in control of the bike. This is why the above statement confuses me. If I’m already finding it really easy and in control what could I gain ?

First off, I said 'many', not 'all' and not 'you'. And that belief comes from having watched many riders out on the road. They often ride in a way that shows - whether they appreciate it or not - how simple changes could make their riding better. These weren't complicated things, nothing that needed Masonic or religious buy-in before fabled methods would be revealed. This was stuff like 'not being able to negotiate mini-roundabouts', or full-sized ones, not being able to ride slowly under control, not being able to stop under full control, not being able to competently get around corners, not being able to manoeuvre in tight spaces (like turning out of T junctions).

I've never seen you ride, only seen your videos of the RE. I really, really, doubt whether I would be the person to help you. And that's the point of, for example, the list I posted for Bigyin, about selecting the appropriate trainer (or 'coach') for what is wanted. The examples I gave in another post demonstrate how people had identified problems. We talked them through then, if I thought I could help, booked in.

If you're happy with your riding, that's great.

And if you don't want anything different, then that's great too.

But a question (which is simply that, it's not intended to be confrontational): is there anyone (track riding) who you have ever thought "I admire that bit of riding" or "They're better there than me"? If - and there might not be - something, then that could be something to consider looking at. [But it doesn't mean that person is the one to talk to]


However, you said something earlier about not liking the checklist approach. Well, whether you realise it or not, you use on-track a very similar approach as riders being trained in 'advanced' riding.

Do you choose a position on the track approaching, and a line through, a bend, use the brakes, change gear, accelerate? What's different about how you ride? Ok, you might not consciously do that every bend, every lap. But, presumably (and I'm not a track rider, so don't know), when you're learning a new track you have to work out braking points, etc.? Then, when you have sorted 'best', do the same each lap. But during that working out phase, you will have a mental list of things to sort. If that's not how you do it, can you explain?

Checklists are used in many critical situations. If you have been on a commercial flight, the pilots used checklists. If you go for surgery, the team will use checklists. Go to big restaurant, the chefs will use checklists (ok, perhaps not a critical application) - but that's what a recipe is, just a checklist.


I'm sorry you were confused by my post. I hope that the longer explanation above (although I post a lot here, it's rarely this detailed) clarifies what I meant.

I'm still confused as to how some people happily seek out - sport or hobby, work, whatever - support, information, training, but biking seems the odd one out. But some people really seem to hate trainers

[Noggin]

I'm still confused as to how some people happily seek out - sport or hobby, work, whatever - support, information, training, but biking seems the odd one out. But some people really seem to hate trainers

Probably cos most people have at some time or another been harangued by IAM types and now would rather run barefoot over hot coals that deal with that sort of thing - and training can be perceived to be with someone like an IAM type!

[weeksy]

I'm still confused as to how some people happily seek out - sport or hobby, work, whatever - support, information, training, but biking seems the odd one out. But some people really seem to hate trainers

Probably cos most people have at some time or another been harangued by IAM types and now would rather run barefoot over hot coals that deal with that sort of thing - and training can be perceived to be with someone like an IAM type!

Is the right answer. The MTB tuition I've had I'm not sure who had the most fun, him or me. We were both laughing like children. That makes the tuition excellent.

That said, the best tuition in the last 2 years for me, was from my 12 year old lady weekend.

[the_priest]

I had a "general" ride out with Spin ages ago, but what I learned then has stood me in very good stead. It is well worth having the wisdom of other riders distilled into what you are doing/requiring. I've also done three ride outs with police bikers and had feedback from them as well which was also useful.

[weeksy]

Because I've ridden with people who were so so good on a bike on the road, I've always been aware that I can improve - so I've always been open to learning more.
But then, I didn't get my first bike till I was 32.
Most of you guys have been riding since you were kids, doing track days and racing since you could first get to a track, so I totally get there is a huge difference - you've all been riding forever, you've not had any major incidents, you have fun, you feel safe - why do you need to change. I'm not in quite the same place

Lol I wish.

31 here was the first time I sat on a bike. My first race took me 2 years of rehab and weeks and months in plaster. Since then I've lost count of how many breaks I've had, another 10+ at least.

[wheelnut]

That said, the best tuition in the last 2 years for me, was from my 12 year old lady weekend.

Your what?

[weeksy]

That said, the best tuition in the last 2 years for me, was from my 12 year old lady weekend.

Your what?

Whoops. I guess editing it would spoil It

[Couchy]

However, I changed my views on the type of training that I provided. I ditched formal 'advanced test' training, moving instead to more of targeted courses - problem solving, or improving specific areas.

'Riding' is a classic example of Donald Rumsfeld's 'knowns and unknowns'. Many riders are completely oblivious to how easier riding could be, or how much more control they could have.

There’s no way my riding could be easier, I’m completely relaxed at all times and always in control of the bike. This is why the above statement confuses me. If I’m already finding it really easy and in control what could I gain ?

First off, I said 'many', not 'all' and not 'you'. And that belief comes from having watched many riders out on the road. They often ride in a way that shows - whether they appreciate it or not - how simple changes could make their riding better. These weren't complicated things, nothing that needed Masonic or religious buy-in before fabled methods would be revealed. This was stuff like 'not being able to negotiate mini-roundabouts', or full-sized ones, not being able to ride slowly under control, not being able to stop under full control, not being able to competently get around corners, not being able to manoeuvre in tight spaces (like turning out of T junctions).

I've never seen you ride, only seen your videos of the RE. I really, really, doubt whether I would be the person to help you. And that's the point of, for example, the list I posted for Bigyin, about selecting the appropriate trainer (or 'coach') for what is wanted. The examples I gave in another post demonstrate how people had identified problems. We talked them through then, if I thought I could help, booked in.

If you're happy with your riding, that's great.

And if you don't want anything different, then that's great too.

But a question (which is simply that, it's not intended to be confrontational): is there anyone (track riding) who you have ever thought "I admire that bit of riding" or "They're better there than me"? If - and there might not be - something, then that could be something to consider looking at. [But it doesn't mean that person is the one to talk to]


However, you said something earlier about not liking the checklist approach. Well, whether you realise it or not, you use on-track a very similar approach as riders being trained in 'advanced' riding.

Do you choose a position on the track approaching, and a line through, a bend, use the brakes, change gear, accelerate? What's different about how you ride? Ok, you might not consciously do that every bend, every lap. But, presumably (and I'm not a track rider, so don't know), when you're learning a new track you have to work out braking points, etc.? Then, when you have sorted 'best', do the same each lap. But during that working out phase, you will have a mental list of things to sort. If that's not how you do it, can you explain?

Checklists are used in many critical situations. If you have been on a commercial flight, the pilots used checklists. If you go for surgery, the team will use checklists. Go to big restaurant, the chefs will use checklists (ok, perhaps not a critical application) - but that's what a recipe is, just a checklist.


I'm sorry you were confused by my post. I hope that the longer explanation above (although I post a lot here, it's rarely this detailed) clarifies what I meant.

I'm still confused as to how some people happily seek out - sport or hobby, work, whatever - support, information, training, but biking seems the odd one out. But some people really seem to hate trainers

I knew your comment wasn’t really aimed at me, on track I ride very much by feel and rarely by deliberate moves. But that’s prob because I’ve done it so long. As for riders I look at and think how or wow there’s none at club level or trackdays as I see that as all achievable if I was younger, fitter or cared anymore. But move up to national and International racing and I’m regularly in awe of the riding skills and there’s no way I could ever do what they do.
I do see that instruction is good for some folk as I used to instruct on track. I do see lots of people on track that really would benefit from help but never ask which confirms your last statement about bikes and their riders not wanting help. It’s prob an ego thing, they’ve bought a sportsbike and darent admit they need help. It’s the same ego that has them fitting slicks and using warmers in a novice group.

[Couchy]

Because I've ridden with people who were so so good on a bike on the road, I've always been aware that I can improve - so I've always been open to learning more.
But then, I didn't get my first bike till I was 32.
Most of you guys have been riding since you were kids, doing track days and racing since you could first get to a track, so I totally get there is a huge difference - you've all been riding forever, you've not had any major incidents, you have fun, you feel safe - why do you need to change. I'm not in quite the same place

Lol I wish.

31 here was the first time I sat on a bike. My first race took me 2 years of rehab and weeks and months in plaster. Since then I've lost count of how many breaks I've had, another 10+ at least.

At age 31 I’d been riding 25 years

[Horse]

Track tuition is a hard one to quantify too, I've had it ... CSS

My one day, road, cornering course effectively included all the elements of CSS Level 1. But with 1:1 coaching for the whole day and for much lower price.

Obviously there were differences: None of the glamour of pits and track, just a car park to start in. No cones on the road corners, you had to learn to identify those points for yourself. And no flag marshals, up to you to decide when to slow.

If Beancounter reads this, he might be able to say whether it was beneficial for him.

FWIW, Spin's 2 day cornering sessions cover far more.

[Horse]

I'm still confused as to how some people happily seek out - sport or hobby, work, whatever - support, information, training, but biking seems the odd one out. But some people really seem to hate trainers

Probably cos most people have at some time or another been harangued by IAM types and now would rather run barefoot over hot coals that deal with that sort of thing - and training can be perceived to be with someone like an IAM type!

Fair point

Something that Spin and I have both done is to look outside of 'typical' uk training. And look for different teaching methods too.

I did a 3 day US learner course which showed me how poor, in many ways, the riding standard of typical Brit riders is. Then completing their instructor course showed how poor instructors were.

[Bigyin]

Can the coach keep up?

Track tuition is a hard one to quantify too, I've had it, both CSS and another, I went faster when Couch called me names and told me to follow him faster or give up and sell my bike.

That worked for you at the time as a motivation, but again on track ....does that count as a bad role model you learned from <devils advocate mode>

No offence meant to couchy at all as i know him and how he rides but the "bad role model to learn from" is something that has come up recently and i couldnt quantify why it was mentioned in relation to some riders i have ridden with and what constituted a "bad role model" ...... perhaps Spin could explain as he mentioned it more than once ?

[The Spin Doctor]

Probably cos most people have at some time or another been harangued by IAM types and now would rather run barefoot over hot coals that deal with that sort of thing - and training can be perceived to be with someone like an IAM type!

It's a funny thing... the IAM types are keen to tell me "but you're just doing the same things we do but saying it's something different"... and the IAM haters are keen to tell me "you're just doing the same things as the IAM".

Neither actually ASK what I do

[The Spin Doctor]

As for riders I look at and think how or wow there’s none at club level or trackdays as I see that as all achievable if I was younger, fitter or cared anymore. But move up to national and International racing and I’m regularly in awe of the riding skills and there’s no way I could ever do what they do.

Try reading 'Winning Ugly' by Brad Gilbert.

It's a remarkably motivating book. And I absolutely hate tennis.

I wrote about what I learned from that book in my own 'MIND over MOTORCYCLE'.

[The Spin Doctor]

i couldnt quantify why it was mentioned in relation to some riders i have ridden with and what constituted a "bad role model" ...... perhaps Spin could explain as he mentioned it more than once ?

Don't misquote me. I did NOT "mention it in relation to riders you have ridden with". I was responding to your statement where you said that in your opinion, a rider could learn better cornering lines by following other riders because you believed you had benefited that way.

I asked how you - or anyone else - knows that the rider they are following is using good lines if the rider doing the following doesn't know what constitutes a good line in the first place. How do they judge? When they stay on the road? When they run off the road?

[Horse]

i couldnt quantify why it was mentioned in relation to some riders i have ridden with and what constituted a "bad role model" ...... perhaps Spin could explain as he mentioned it more than once ?

Don't misquote me. I did NOT "mention it in relation to riders you have ridden with". I was responding to your statement where you said that in your opinion, a rider could learn better cornering lines by following other riders because you believed you had benefited that way.

I asked how you - or anyone else - knows that the rider they are following is using good lines if the rider doing the following doesn't know what constitutes a good line in the first place. How do they judge? When they stay on the road? When they run off the road?

I fear you have misunderstood BY. I think - and will leave you to check back - that he later qualified his comment about riding with others (and the quality of their riding) when viewed from his existing knowledge gained from police advanced driving.

If that's what you're referring to. I may have misunderstood...

[Noggin]

Track tuition is a hard one to quantify too, I've had it ... CSS

My one day, road, cornering course effectively included all the elements of CSS Level 1. But with 1:1 coaching for the whole day and for much lower price.

Obviously there were differences: None of the glamour of pits and track, just a car park to start in. No cones on the road corners, you had to learn to identify those points for yourself. And no flag marshals, up to you to decide when to slow.

If Beancounter reads this, he might be able to say whether it was beneficial for him.

FWIW, Spin's 2 day cornering sessions cover far more.

I had a similar experience (from a learning point of view) - I showed my first riding buddy the CCS leaflet many many years ago and said I was considering it. After the next two morning rideouts, he pointed out that we'd covered the syllabus!!

Probably cos most people have at some time or another been harangued by IAM types and now would rather run barefoot over hot coals that deal with that sort of thing - and training can be perceived to be with someone like an IAM type!

It's a funny thing... the IAM types are keen to tell me "but you're just doing the same things we do but saying it's something different"... and the IAM haters are keen to tell me "you're just doing the same things as the IAM".

Neither actually ASK what I do

I think the issues is that too many IAM take a "know it all/god-like" approach to inflicting their 'knowledge on unsuspecting people, which results in those people grouping all instructors into the same brackets.

I've learnt that I learn better when it's with someone I can laugh with - my two French teachers are great and we laugh in every lesson, it makes it fun! I react badly to being 'instructed' from the 'know it all level'!! But if someone will talk to me and chat and laugh, then I'll learn loads

For you, part of the issue is that people read things in the tone of voice they expect. So whilst you write in a chatty helpful way, anyone who has been IAM'd will read what you write in a totally different tone of voice. Not sure how you address that tho!