How many of you have had professional coaching to improve your road riding

[Horse]

Reading this thread, it seems "just to have fun" is what most want ? I'm not knocking what you're doing by the way... but what do you feel you can 'give' ?

As I said earlier, I moved away from 'train for advanced test' to more problem solving.

The advantages of training are, mainly:
- a short cut to experience (some people, however long they ride for, don't alter from experience)
- learning from others' experiences. Yorick mentioned 'learning the hard way'. Well, first you have to survive it. Let other people have the pain and grief.
- problem solving. If someone does realise they have an issue, targeted training can help sort it. I could give plenty of examples.

Another thing that troubles me slightly is that 'trainers' believe they can make someone better without actually ever having seen them ride. Whether better/safer/quicker/whatever, how can a trainer make that assumption without ever knowing or seeing the person. They may be rubbish, but quite easily could also be brilliant.

See above for problem solving. Otherwise, you do an initial assessment ride.

FWIW I've done training and assessment sessions for riders who were better than me. But you usually find something to talk about.

And if they were good, I would tell them.

[The Spin Doctor]

I don't understand why you trainer types have to make it into a religion where you're obsessed with converting the rest of us.

Didn't I just say that's EXACTLY what I don't do?

I bet I'm at least as fast between two points as you and possibly faster, and I'm still alive, so why is it impossible for you to let me enjoy what I do without trying to convert me to what it is you do?

If you're making a living and it's about taking my money then fair enough, we've all got to make a living, but at least own that, often it's packaged as you're doing me a massive favour, that I didn't need or ask for.

Read my response to Weeksy. As I explained, it's what YOU want out of the session that defines how I deliver my coaching. I'm not selling you a 'religion'. I leave that to the IAM.

Nor am I selling magic beans. I have put a lot of time and effort into:

1) discovering what the average rider is looking for in terms of upskilling (sorry, horrible word)
2) what works to turn them into riders who are 'better' BY THEIR OWN DEFINITION
3) the best way to deliver what I know about riding which I believe will be of benefit to them.

And my experience is that after a course, I can nearly always see the difference but more importantly the trainee can see it too.

If you don't need coaching, or don't ask for it, then don't turn up. Simple as that.

The only thing I will argue the toss on is the idea that learning by trailing round after mates is an adequate substitute for a structured training session. OK, and the 'progress imperative' on conventional advanced training - I don't have much time for that either

[The Spin Doctor]

How do you know someone is a motorcycle trainer? They'll tell you, as soon as they possibly can, and then usually they'll go on and on about it until you make your excuses and manage to get away from them

Years ago, I was trying to identify a stratum of rock. The guy looking at the view next to me overhead, and turned round and said "actually it's..."

I must have looked a bit dubious. He said "I'm professor of geology at Manchester university".

I conceded his expertise.

[millemille]

It's an interesting, relatively, question....

6 or 7 years ago I was a manager in a huge, multi-national, construction company which ran a massive fleet of vehicles and in the space of a month there had been 3 fatalities while employees were driving on work duties. Cue much attention being paid to driving competency and standards. All of the company branded vehicles had telematics fitted and the company clamped down on any exceedances, but me and my team were driving unbranded vehicles which were also for our personal use so didn't have telematics fitted. I arranged for an advanced instructor to come in and take each of my team, and myself, out for half a day on an observed drive and some advice based on what was observed.

It was excellent - whether down to the individual instructor or the setting or the remit, I don't know - and there are still many things I learnt on that half day that I apply now.

Contrasting that with my bike additional instruction experience...

About 10 years ago I had a spate of 3 accidents in the space of 6 months while commuting in to/through London. None of them technically my fault, cars pulling out on me etc., but given I'd been commuting into and through London on a bike for years and never had an accident that wasn't instantly recognised as being my fault I wondered if I was slipping.

So I took advantage of an offer from Kent police for a free "BikeSafe" day of observed rising. I turned up in full textiles on my ratty old SV650 with huge panniers and top box - so they didn't pre-judge me as some speed demon.

Pissed down with rain and it was an utter waste of time. Didn't break one law all day, rode progressively to the limits of the road and conditions, but spent most of my time having to stop and wait for the police riders catch up. Got told at the end of the day that there was nothing they could teach me about riding a bike on the road. They were more interested in having me explain to them why I moved about on the bike as much as I did, hanging off the inside, and how it helped to go round bends.

So I thought I'd give the IAM a try and arranged a ride with a local IAM instructor. Before we even set off he was giving it the "I'll have to take your riding apart and break you down and put it all back together again" speech, so my back was up before we even started. Managed about 2 miles before he starts flashing his lights and pulls me over and starts with the patronising arsehole attitude.

So I left him to it....

[Cousin Jack]

Had 2 lots of professional training.

One was just after coming back to biking after a 40 year gap. Run by a plod instructor, lots of theory stuff, and then 2 days on the road. It was supposed to deliver an NVQ (it didn't) and I had major issues with the commercial side of it. However the bloke who did the riding stuff was good, and it delivered enough skills to stop me killing myself.

The second was with Spin. I was having major problems with hairpin bends. 1 day with Spin sorted that.

I have also done Bikesafe, and dabbled with the IAM (we didn't get on).

[weeksy]

The second was with Spin. I was having major problems with hairpin bends. 1 day with Spin sorted that.

Can you elaborate on how/what slightly ?

[Alan PBTD]

Interesting thread. I've done 3/ 4 day DVSA courses and enjoyed every one - even if I come out with a small tip then I think its a benefit. We've done the Bike Safe and FBOS stuff down here with HOG as well - which was OK - seen a lot before but then viewed it differently when I was a witness to a 3 car RTC yesterday and no F**ker stopped...
Main thing that always gets me on the DVSA courses is the instructors ability to read constant situations and process the resulting information so quickly - and then act upon it. I know a few of the instructors - they also come down Pembrey so we do have a right laugh - but can understand what others are saying about instructors in other areas.
The way I look at it - if there's a method that'll keep me safer on the road and it cost a few quid then that's better than 6 weeks in hospital..

[Cousin Jack]

The second was with Spin. I was having major problems with hairpin bends. 1 day with Spin sorted that.

Can you elaborate on how/what slightly ?

IIRC I was turning in far too early and then running wide on the exit. This was not good in some parts of Europe.

Spin drilled me into sticking to the outside until I could see the exit and then, and only then, countersteer firmly to get where I wanted to be. All within about 20 miles of Oxford, he knew some interesting roads.

[weeksy]

All within about 20 miles of Oxford, he knew some interesting roads.

Ace... come show me the roads Spin

[The Spin Doctor]

Having to sit through your brand of "I'm better at it than you" will diminish that considerably.

Where did I say that?

I bet I've won more races than you have, so you need to find someone more gullible to part from their money.

I thought I'd made it fairly clear I'm not selling magic beans.

[Horse]

I bet I'm at least as fast between two points as you and possibly faster

Another thing that troubles me ... 'trainers' believe they can make someone better without actually ever having seen them ride.

Similar attitude seems to apply to non-trainers too

FWIW, yes, you may well be faster than Spin or I have ever been. Actually, it my case, 'definitely' faster. But so what?

Here's an example of a trainee that I helped: the rider was on the point of giving up biking because they struggled to make a tight turn out of the side road they lived in. Another: someone had physically recovered from a crash, but not mentally. We worked on machine control, confidence, then bends. Or someone who, at the time, had been riding longer than I had, but found that he had 'forgotten' how to go around corners.

[Horse]

I'm just saying I don't want it forced upon me with tales of impending doom if I disagree with your insistence that I need it.

Presumably you don't mean me there?

[Couchy]

But I do value learning in all sports

I can honestly say that I've never had anyone suggest that they haven't benefited from a training session.

However, I changed my views on the type of training that I provided. I ditched formal 'advanced test' training, moving instead to more of targeted courses - problem solving, or improving specific areas.

It's interesting that the personalities of trainers is a factor that may influence people to even have the thought of 'training' being enough to put them off. Every now and again here, there are comments made that the mindset that trainers (like me and Spin) of planning for where things might go wrong is 'boring' or similar.

But everyone - however much some might deny it - already thinks like that to a certain degree. If you have ever braked for a corner, then you have demonstrated that type of thinking.


'Riding' is a classic example of Donald Rumsfeld's 'knowns and unknowns'. Many riders are completely oblivious to how easier riding could be, or how much more control they could have.

There’s no way my riding could be easier, I’m completely relaxed at all times and always in control of the bike. This is why the above statement confuses me. If I’m already finding it really easy and in control what could I gain ?

[r1flyguy]

I'm reading these posts with the overwhelming and obvious thoughts that, "It's just not for everyone" Simple

You can lead a horse to water and all that.....

I did the RosPa course initially purely for my own personal safety, I was in my very early 20's at the time so I think it showed a bit of self preservation.

Some people are just naturally gifted at things they do others not so much. One of the silly reasons I want to do a 'Wheelie School', not to be an idiot on the road, moreso that I can finally feel what the balance point is on 1 wheel. Im not sure I would even be any good at it but I'm willing to try but i digress...

I do know from a personal standpoint that the advanced driving and motorcycle courses have stood me in good stead for my everyday riding and driving and I feel quite privileged to have done them. I try to maintain and adopt those standards to a degree up until they are not working for me then I integrate other skills I have learnt and combine them.

I'm pretty happy with 'my' abilities and I would happily ride with anyone but in the end, I would still ride my own ride as that's where i'm most happy and having fun.

[Noggin]

2 of our 3 AR crew are ex plod. 1 was an SIO trafpol and the other was surveillance.
Both are top drawer riders and offer advice and opinion on your riding abilities and dont pull their punches if they think you deserve a bollocking!
As I have said before, their rideouts are a lot brisker than UK based IAM stuff, but always 100% safe.
If most of your riding is on road, why wouldnt you want to make yourself safer/faster/smoother

Do you think they/one of them might be willing to ride out at a slightly slower pace when I'm back on 2 wheels??

My instructing was fun. They could already ride.
I just showed them how to have fun on track.

But I did show many how to brake properly.

That's what I love about track instruction. I'm already having fun. I know how to ride and can get round a track reasonably quickly. But every time I get track instruction (at least once every track day) I learn more, get more confidence and have more fun

Equally, I found that with riding with my two riding buddies (separately!) - they knew so much about bikes and riding on both road and track that on the road, just on a rideout, I found I learnt things every time



I LOVE learning - and when it increases my ability or confidence (or both) I appreciate it a lot!

But it isn't for everyone - in the way that track days aren't for everyone. Personally I think everyone would benefit from a TD, if only to see how much you can do with the bike (in a limited way in novice!) without the risk of road furniture or oncoming traffic - but it isn't for everyone

[The Spin Doctor]

Personally I think everyone would benefit from a TD, if only to see how much you can do with the bike (in a limited way in novice!) without the risk of road furniture or oncoming traffic - but it isn't for everyone

But how much more would they gain from a session on the track with a riding coach to help them "see how much they can do"?

[weeksy]

Personally I think everyone would benefit from a TD, if only to see how much you can do with the bike (in a limited way in novice!) without the risk of road furniture or oncoming traffic - but it isn't for everyone

But how much more would they gain from a session on the track with a riding coach to help them "see how much they can do"?

Can the coach keep up?

Track tuition is a hard one to quantify too, I've had it, both CSS and another, I went faster when Couch called me names and told me to follow him faster or give up and sell my bike.

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

The second was with Spin. I was having major problems with hairpin bends. 1 day with Spin sorted that.

Can you elaborate on how/what slightly ?

IIRC I was turning in far too early and then running wide on the exit. This was not good in some parts of Europe.

Spin drilled me into sticking to the outside until I could see the exit and then, and only then, countersteer firmly to get where I wanted to be. All within about 20 miles of Oxford, he knew some interesting roads.

I'm crap at hairpins on a tarmac biased bike, but fucking ace at them on a dirt biased bike like a Supermoto

[The Spin Doctor]

Can the coach keep up?

Seeing as Noggs was talking in the context of a novice learning to get closer to the limits of what a bike can achieve, I would ruddy well hope so

Track tuition is a hard one to quantify too, I've had it, both CSS and another, I went faster when Couch called me names and told me to follow him faster or give up and sell my bike.

It's worth pointing out that even top MotoGP riders have used coaches regularly... who may not be as 'fast' but can see things that can be changed and improved from the 'outside' perspective.

Personally I had an assessment and a few tips at Castle Coombe a few years ago from one of their track instructors. He said I should get into racing - I was quick enough. I did once lap Spa fast enough to have qualified 2nd last for that year's World Endurance Race. But I don't have the competitive urge to push to the limit in order to beat the bloke next to me. If I had done any racing it would have been endurance where it's more important to be consistent for long periods, not short circuit stuff.

[weeksy]

It's worth pointing out that even top MotoGP riders have used coaches regularly... who may not be as 'fast' but can see things that can be changed and improved from the 'outside' perspective. .

I agree. In a golf context I was never quite good enough to turn Pro bit I was a very good coach.