1000 miles as a beginner

[Bigyin]

On the subject of group riding i used to ride completely on my own for ages and back in the day turned up on a VD rideout (as Spin has mentioned). It was led by a bloke called Adam who turned out to be one of my best mates over the next 20 years and rode all over the country and Europe with him.

The first ride out i was in a group of about 20 and in all honesty i thought "wtf am i doing" as i was way out of my depth with so many people around, some who were way faster than me, some slower. I slowly learned not to chase the fast guys and find someone in the group of a slightly faster level than me and watch the cleaner riders as they passed and cleared off and learned from what they did. These riders were silky smooth, rode using correct lines, didnt do stupid shit and looked effortless. Adam, Animal, Funners, Matboyslim are names that will be known by others. There were many others whose riding i watched and thought they were an accident waiting to happen ...and sometimes did

I learned through watching these guys and my riding improved and got smoother although i was never quite at their level speed wise. On a good day i could ride fairly close to most of them.

Riding in a group can be beneficial but remember YOUR limits and YOUR experience level and dont be pushed by peer pressure to "keep up"

[The Spin Doctor]

These riders were silky smooth, rode using correct lines

But how did you KNOW they were the 'correct' lines? Just because they got round a corner is not a guarantee they are the 'right' lines (and that's not an aspersion about anyone mentioned by name, by the way). It's an observation that monkey see, monkey do is a spectacularly inefficient way of learning UNLESS the person doing the demonstrating knows what they are doing. I've watched 'silky smooth' riders who can sweep round smooth A road corners, yet haven't a clue about how to join up the entry, turn-in and exit point dots that control every corner with the result they get totally out of their depth on anything like a technical road.

[Noggin]

If you want to learn to ride faster, learn the basics of riding with an instructor THEN work on pushing your own limits when you know how.

Sorry if it's the wildly unpopular and seemingly expensive option. But as a lot of riders discover, a training course is cheaper than a rebuild.

That's not wildly unpopular! It's basically what I did - I was lucky to ride with people to teach me the basics first (Ok, the first was a track instructor, but he taught me HOW to ride on the road before he taught me how to ride fast on the road)

I would definitely get proper training when I get back on a bike, but think I'll struggle to find instructors here - the schools seem to teach the bike licence from cars

So will chat to friends and see if I can find someone that teaches that I can meet up with.

[Horse]

These riders were silky smooth, rode using correct lines

But how did you KNOW they were the 'correct' lines? Just because they got round a corner is not a guarantee they are the 'right' lines

Hindsight?

[Horse]

On a good day i could ride fairly close to most of them.

And that's an important point. It's not just staying within your limits, but also recognising that they will vary day by day.

Worst case, say 'Sod this' and go home.

[The Spin Doctor]

These riders were silky smooth, rode using correct lines

But how did you KNOW they were the 'correct' lines? Just because they got round a corner is not a guarantee they are the 'right' lines

Hindsight?

I still remember my first lap of the Paul Ricard. I obviously looked like I knew what I was doing because three other riders tagged on behind me. Two of them followed me into the run-off at the double droit de Beausset. The third was my buddy Andy, who'd realised I'd cocked up and rode past laughing his head off.

I'm sure the two who followed me realised in hindsight I hadn't ridden the 'correct' line for that corner

(It's actually a triple apex corner - or it was, then - where you clip the first, run way out at the second, then dive in for a very late third apex to fire out onto the next straight. If you do what I did and hit the second apex, you're in the kitty litter a moment later with the track somewhere over behind your right shoulder. I figured that out as I paddled the bike back towards the circuit. Although I'd watched god knows how many 24 hour races from trackside I'd always wondered why so many riders crash there! It's not obvious from the banking.)

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

The moral of Spin's lap of Ricard is don't follow other people's lines, follow your own, the person you're following may have less of a clue than you.

Ignore the above if the person you're following is instructing you.

[Yorick]

But how did you KNOW they were the 'correct' lines? Just because they got round a corner is not a guarantee they are the 'right' lines

Hindsight?

I still remember my first lap of the Paul Ricard. I obviously looked like I knew what I was doing because three other riders tagged on behind me. Two of them followed me into the run-off at the double droit de Beausset. The third was my buddy Andy, who'd realised I'd cocked up and rode past laughing his head off.

I'm sure the two who followed me realised in hindsight I hadn't ridden the 'correct' line for that corner

(It's actually a triple apex corner - or it was, then - where you clip the first, run way out at the second, then dive in for a very late third apex to fire out onto the next straight. If you do what I did and hit the second apex, you're in the kitty litter a moment later with the track somewhere over behind your right shoulder. I figured that out as I paddled the bike back towards the circuit. Although I'd watched god knows how many 24 hour races from trackside I'd always wondered why so many riders crash there! It's not obvious from the banking.)

You've described it as a double apex corner.

[The Spin Doctor]

You've described it as a double apex corner.

Aye... that's how you link the kinks up... but back then there were actually three distinct kinks, with three bits of painted kerb. If you did it right, you ignored the middle one. First time round I didn't.

Interestingly, they've smoothed the bend out and I suspect it's now more of a decreasing radius, late apex turn.

[Bigyin]

These riders were silky smooth, rode using correct lines

But how did you KNOW they were the 'correct' lines? Just because they got round a corner is not a guarantee they are the 'right' lines (and that's not an aspersion about anyone mentioned by name, by the way). It's an observation that monkey see, monkey do is a spectacularly inefficient way of learning UNLESS the person doing the demonstrating knows what they are doing. I've watched 'silky smooth' riders who can sweep round smooth A road corners, yet haven't a clue about how to join up the entry, turn-in and exit point dots that control every corner with the result they get totally out of their depth on anything like a technical road.

These riders were silky smooth, rode using correct lines

But how did you KNOW they were the 'correct' lines? Just because they got round a corner is not a guarantee they are the 'right' lines

Hindsight?

Oh, i think I had a fair idea of what the correct lines should be ....... i was back then an advanced trained pursuit and response police driver.

I have also ridden with some of these guys for thousands and one for tens of thousands miles on everything from fast A roads to the most technical roads known to man on all sorts of road surfaces from billiard smooth to loose gravel

[The Spin Doctor]

Oh, i think I had a fair idea of what the correct lines should be ....... i was back then and advanced trained pursuit and response police driver.

Yes, maybe... but... you were suggesting someone just past his test could learn the same way by following random riders!

[Bigyin]

On the subject of group riding i used to ride completely on my own for ages and back in the day turned up on a VD rideout (as Spin has mentioned). It was led by a bloke called Adam who turned out to be one of my best mates over the next 20 years and rode all over the country and Europe with him.

The first ride out i was in a group of about 20 and in all honesty i thought "wtf am i doing" as i was way out of my depth with so many people around, some who were way faster than me, some slower. I slowly learned not to chase the fast guys and find someone in the group of a slightly faster level than me and watch the cleaner riders as they passed and cleared off and learned from what they did. These riders were silky smooth, rode using correct lines, didnt do stupid shit and looked effortless. Adam, Animal, Funners, Matboyslim are names that will be known by others. There were many others whose riding i watched and thought they were an accident waiting to happen ...and sometimes did

I learned through watching these guys and my riding improved and got smoother although i was never quite at their level speed wise. On a good day i could ride fairly close to most of them.

Riding in a group can be beneficial but remember YOUR limits and YOUR experience level and dont be pushed by peer pressure to "keep up"

Oh, i think I had a fair idea of what the correct lines should be ....... i was back then and advanced trained pursuit and response police driver.

Yes, maybe... but... you were suggesting someone just past his test could learn the same way by following random riders!

I was suggesting it is possible to learn from others ....... i then placed a large caveat in the last line of the post which you can see

[The Spin Doctor]

I was suggesting it is possible to learn from others ....... i then placed a large caveat in the last line of the post which you can see

If you want to be strictly accurate, you didn't provide any warning at all about the riders being followed maybe not being ideal role models. You just mentioned the risks of peer pressure.

[Bigyin]

I was suggesting it is possible to learn from others ....... i then placed a large caveat in the last line of the post which you can see

If you want to be strictly accurate, you didn't provide any warning at all about the riders being followed maybe not being ideal role models. You just mentioned the risks of peer pressure.

Yet again a post is forensically dissected to the point of wondering why bother .... congrats

I gave a personal example of what worked for me over a long period of time riding with these people .... i learned and suggested it was possible to learn from others as long as you remembered your own experience and limits .

If you want me to be strictly accurate i should have broken down each ride 2 weeks apart over a period of 3-4 years and quantified exactly how my progress was made but by then the person who brought up the point would have lost the will to live reading the in depth analysis and pissed off to some other forum

[The Spin Doctor]

Yet again a post is forensically dissected to the point of wondering why bother .... congrats

If it can be forensically dissected, it clearly wasn't accurate advice in the first place. That's "why bother".

I... suggested it was possible to learn from others as long as you remembered your own experience and limits .

And - respectfully - I disagree.

Monkey see, monkey do is - and has been proven to be over centuries of trying it - a very poor learning approach. Firstly the person wanting to do the learning rarely has any clear idea of what needs improving, and thus has little idea of how to go about improving. Secondly, the person wanting to improve rarely has any idea of what they are seeing when they watch someone better, which makes it almost impossible to derive any meaningful lessons.

If monkey see, monkey do actually worked, why would there be any need for the CBTs you yourself actually deliver?

And remember this - you were offering advice to a novice rider, with just 1000 miles in his riding career. In that context, talking about "riding within your own experience and limits" is pretty meaningless since that experience is minimal.

Look, what I was trying to say was simply this - if you want to learn 'better biking' then the best place to do that is with a decent coach who can listen to your own concerns and wants, look at your riding and determine your abilities and weaknesses, then offer targeted exercises which build up the weak areas and expand on your strengths.

We accept coaching in all walks of life from learning at school and college, via apprenticeships at work, to learning leisure pursuits like golf and tennis. Even the top MotoGP riders are happy to get ongoing coaching to develop their skills.

But for some reason, when it comes to 'ordinary' riders on bikes (and it happens in driving too), we assume that we can learn from our mates... usually people with no coaching experience or qualifications, and who frequently are no sort of role model either.

That's it from me on the topic.

[tricol]

Hey @tricol I'm slow and can show you around Bowland / Dale's if you want someone to pootle about with

Thanks for the offer fella, I will keep it in mind. Would be nice to ride up that way someday.

Appreciate all the input throughout the thread from everyone.