Inevitable new bike thread

[Horse]

Do I blame the villain or the victim. ??

Where there's blame there's a claim!

[JackyJoll]

Do I blame the villain or the victim. ??

Where there's blame there's a claim!

Where there’s a stabber, there’s jibber-jabber.

[Whysub]

I think what Spin meant was about comparisons with training available in other countries, making it THE best.

Although, even in the UK, regional police driving schools are never as good as Hendon, are they?

I see what you mean now. Did my initial training in Conway, North Wales back in 2000. All my refresher courses since have been undertaken at two regional centres, but not Hendon, hence I never do the "Met shuffle"

The intensity of training also depends on whether you will be riding marked or unmarked bikes, as the unmarked is just that little bit more.

I have ridden with trained riders from Czechia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Poland, Lithuania, Hungary, Germany and France, and from out discussions, their training is all pretty much similar to that in the UK, but then they all ride marked bike, not unmarked.

[Horse]

... not Hendon, hence I never do the "Met shuffle"

The intensity of training also depends on whether you will be riding marked or unmarked bikes, as the unmarked is just that little bit more.

I have ridden with trained riders from Czechia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Poland, Lithuania, Hungary, Germany and France, and from out discussions, their training is all pretty much similar to that in the UK, but then they all ride marked bike, not unmarked.

I've had the luxury of civvie training to US standards as it was 1992 - 1994. At that time, some content developed in the 1980s was well ahead of Roadcraft (blue book then), it would only get anywhere near with the 1995 revision.

FWIW when I did the 'advanced' course, we had a trafpol with us. He really struggled with some of the riding, blamed his training, said he couldn't do anything differently!

However, several of the UK riders said that combining uk and us training would have made a great format.

[Potter]

242 deaths by stabbing in the UK in 2019
45,627 knife/sharp instrument incidents in 2019

336 motorcyclists killed in the UK in 2019 - failing to pay proper attention was given as the cause for a majority of them.
16,224 casualties

So your nonsense figure of five times more likely to be stabbed than killed on a motorbike is just that, nonsense. You're actually far more likely to be stabbed. However if you choose to ride a bike then your chance of dying is significantly higher - not just than any other road user (including cyclists and pedestrians) but also of someone walking down the street taking their chances of being stabbed to death.

As with all these things, it's all down to participation levels. More people walk down the street or are at risk of being a victim of a knife crime but the likelihood of it happening is much smaller because the population that participate in that is huge.

Anyway, don't tell your mate - it won't help him to sell self-defence courses.

I couldn't be arsed to google facts but I knew for a fact that you were "at least five times more likely" to be stabbed than die on your motorcycle, so what I said was factually correct and I didn't really give a shit about the numbers, I was just making a point that things are dangerous and that most people simply accept it as a potential risk and don't rush off to do some sort of voodoo magic course to protect them from it.

Furthermore, this attitude from the H&S people for any type of voluntary dangerous sports/activities is invasive and frankly I wish they'd just leave us alone. We're already at the point where most young people can't be arsed jumping through the ridiculous hoops that are needed to get a motorbike licence in the UK, my boy has a full licence here and he's really enjoying it, he was excited to come back to the UK and ride my bikes, but upon checking the law whilst in theory he can exchange his local licence for a UK license, there are also age restrictions, so on top of the 12yrs he's been riding so far and the full motorcycle license that he owns, he now has to wait another two years until he can ride any of my two strokes and seven years until he can ride what he wants, so he just said fuck it, he's lost interest.

The people that created this hysteria and the belief that everyone can die of old age if only we'd do their courses vex me.

In the workplace I'll have it all day long, in fact I'm fanatical that you should be able to come to work and be safe, so I support my QHSE guys to the n'th degree, they have more power than anyone else in the company and I want everyone to go home without experiencing any kind of upset. But in my hobbies and sports that are a bit dangerous then step back, I'll make my own choices about risk, don't preach your voodoo to me.

The boy is ok, the hospital said no breaks but he has some colourful bruising and they put his arm in a sling, which lasted until we got home and then he went running, he's finishing his A-levels and then hoping to get into the Parachute Regiment. He's a chip off the old block and he's about as unlikely to sit whimpering in his room reading road safety books as I am. He went to college and back on his bike yesterday, he set off grumbling about his shoulder and then came in later that day swearing about some woman that pulled into the side of the road with no indicators then did a U-turn right in front of him at almost the same place but he'd anticipated it and stopped. He's learning.

[Yorick]

The last 2 lines are the important bit. You can't really teach it, you sometimes need to learn the hard way.

[The Spin Doctor]

For me, if I don't make light of things to do with the less fun side of bikes, it becomes just that, not fun

I don't think I 'trivialise' because that implies that I don't care/learn/think

I definitely learn from every incident - not just the ones that hurt/cost. I learnt a lot from the guy that forced me to the other side of the road and still didn't stop pulling out! I learnt a lot from crashing the blackbird a couple of times. More from crashing the TLs. But I really have learnt as much, if not more, from incidents that 'could have been worse' if I hadn't reacted the way I did. But every incident (avoided or crashed) is different so we are always learning. I read your's and Horse's posts, your stuff on FB. And listen to people more experienced and learn when I get to ride with them

Here, I don't think anyone is Actually trivialising things. Yes it could read like that, but you have a bunch of pretty experienced riders who almost certainly all know that we never stop learning, many of whom are also parents, showing concern for another guy who's son walked away from what 'could' have been bloody serious. I don't disagree with the things you say and it's interesting reading - I hope it doesn't stop Iccy posting updates on how his son gets on when he goes back out

But I do take issue with the word trivialise. That may be how you read it but almost certainly not how it is written/meant

We all know how dangerous our hobby is. We all know we can learn more. And I suspect that I'm not the only one that tries to learn by reading and from riding with others. But if we concentrate on the danger side of the sport/hobby, focus on what might happen, try to eliminate those things, then we lose part of what makes it fun and a passion?

Yes, keep learning, but if we make jokes or don't focus on things, we aren't trivialising at all. Just keeping it a bit light in the immediate aftermath of a scary situation for one of our friends and his family

There's a difference between approaching a serious topic light-heartedly, and expressing a view that implies a serious topic isn't serious - which is trivialising the issue, and that's exactly what we do if we conflate the potential outcome from spilling a coffee with the potential outcome of falling off a motorcycle.

Likewise, the 'shit happens' mindset. No it doesn't, if you look at most motorcycle crashes like this one. We have data on crashes at junctions which has been collected from all over the world, and here in the UK goes back seventy-odd years. The research on that data goes back to the 60s. And - as I explained at length - the rider could almost always have predicted it, and far more often than not could therefore have taken steps to avoid it.

The problem is that we simply don't teach new riders (or drivers come to that) about why things like this happen. So they go out on the road on a nice new shiny bike and bounce off a car on day two. It's not their fault for using their imagination to predict a situation they'd not been prepared for.

But we REALLY don't help by saying "ah well, it's all part of the rich tapestry of learning to ride". Every week the newsfeed I use to prepare stories for my Elevenses webcast is full of crash reports... this list is are those reported between Tuesday morning and last night, and exclude two fatals involving stolen bikes:

• Ballycastle crash claims life of motorcyclist
  
  Road blocked in North Tawton after car and motorbike crash - updates
  
  Police appeal for dashcam footage after motorcyclist dies in Weston-Super-Mare crash
  
  Motorcyclist dies in crash with car on A361 in North Devon
  
  Motorcyclist suffers 'life-changing' injuries after Alma Road crash
  Plymouth Live
  
  Updates: Motorcyclist dies in crash on A40 at Dursley Cross
  Gloucestershire Live
  
  Motorcyclist killed in crash on Dorset road
  
  61-year-old dies after motorcycle accident in Cotswolds
  
  Motorbiker seriously injured in Ipswich crash

Frankly I find that too depressing to talk about. So I don't.

As you say, we WILL learn from experience... IF we let ourselves... but we don't do that by pretending that the risk of fall off is like knocking a hot coffee over. I noticed that three of those riders who died were 30, 50's and 61... so probably not complete novices. So maybe learning from experience isn't QUITE so easy as we believe.

[The Spin Doctor]

JOOC who told you it was THE best?

Everyone. It is the most difficult course to pass, even getting an application accepted is difficult.

I think what Spin meant was about comparisons with training available in other countries, making it THE best.

Although, even in the UK, regional police driving schools are never as good as Hendon, are they?

And you also need an independent assessment, and a comparison with what else is available in the broader field. Otherwise it's a bit like Carlsberg.

[The Spin Doctor]

I applaud your passion for the thing that you are passionate about

That's appreciated.

I appreciate your offer and I'd struggle to put up an argument against good training,

Do you know what? I'd be more than happy if you tried because that allows a dialogue from which we both benefit.

The people who are toughest to train are those who believe taking training automatically makes them better riders. And that's because they often come in thinking it's turning up and taking the course that matters, not what happens during the day. They are looking for confirmation of what they think they already know, not to be challenged - they are essentially 'badge collectors'. I had a guy like that years ago who was on the old VD forum, and he wrote a scathing report to his RoSPA group about how I had gone back to basics with him and taught him 'learner stuff' like how to read road signs. It clearly never entered his head that the reason I went back to basics was because he'd forgotten most of it. He could spout off about limit points and IPSGA till the cows came home, and why engine braking was better than using the brakes... and out on the road he failed to spot junction signs which would have warned him about a turning concealed by a bend where he had to brake hard to avoid a turning car, or to use his mirrors when slowing down a few metres ahead of an HGV doing 50+ mph!

however, consider this, a ​geezer I know is one of these tactical urban survival experts, he teaches people how to appropriately deal with a potentially violent encounter. He's ex-military and good at it and he makes a living from it. He lives and breathes this stuff.

Just out of interest, how many advanced urban defence type courses have you been on in the last twelve months?

I ask because you're at least five times more likely to be stabbed in the street than you are to be killed whilst riding your motorcycle. And that's just stabbed, if we consider all violent crime then it's many more times than that. If you're nipping down the road for a pint of milk or a Cornetto without going on one of these courses, especially if you're a young man, then you're taking a big risk... I could offer a pretty similar argument asking how you reconcile letting anyone you love walk the streets without doing multiple advanced urban defence courses, seeing as the risk is more significant.

Others have questioned the numbers, the answer is to look at micromorts.

Data aside, the point is a reasonable one. But much the same answers apply. Know the risks. If you hang out with city centre gangs of teenage drug runners and carry a knife yourself, then you significantly up your exposure to the risk. It doesn't mean you won't be mugged on the way back from Sainsburys but our choices have consequences. So we need to be able to make informed choices... which leads me back to my original point about riders simply not being aware of how, when, where and what bike crashes happen or what they can do about them.

I take my parenting seriously, but since he's been 5yrs old I let my boy ride/race motorcycles without an advanced course, I don't want to do one and he doesn't want to do one and I don't force it, am I a bad parent for this?

I'm not offering advanced training as most people understand it

I'm offering 'insight' training these days. And that's all about giving you the tools to make better decisions.

And (whisper it...) provided you don't just think "Spin's talking out his arse again", this dialogue IS undoubtedly achieving that.

And the book isn't training either - it's knowledge

[Asian Boss]

Don't worry about all that 'advanced training' bollocks, just fit a loud exhaust and gan it up on t'back wheel.

[Asian Boss]

And one final word before I go out and run a www.survivalskills.co.uk rider training course...

The expression "live and learn" is the wrong way round. We need to "LEARN IN ORDER TO LIVE".

I applaud your passion for the thing that you are passionate about, I appreciate your offer and I'd struggle to put up an argument against good training, however, consider this, a ​geezer I know is one of these tactical urban survival experts, he teaches people how to appropriately deal with a potentially violent encounter. He's ex-military and good at it and he makes a living from it. He lives and breathes this stuff.

Just out of interest, how many advanced urban defence type courses have you been on in the last twelve months?

I ask because you're at least five times more likely to be stabbed in the street than you are to be killed whilst riding your motorcycle. And that's just stabbed, if we consider all violent crime then it's many more times than that. If you're nipping down the road for a pint of milk or a Cornetto without going on one of these courses, especially if you're a young man, then you're taking a big risk.

I take my parenting seriously, but since he's been 5yrs old I let my boy ride/race motorcycles without an advanced course, I don't want to do one and he doesn't want to do one and I don't force it, am I a bad parent for this?

I could offer a pretty similar argument asking how you reconcile letting anyone you love walk the streets without doing multiple advanced urban defence courses, seeing as the risk is more significant.

Show your kids how to bring the fire to a brawl. Or paralyze a woman.

[Taipan]

Been knocked off of two bikes and both claims were awarded against the drivers and not me. 1st one was a Mini Cab driver jumping a red light into the side of me. Thank God for BMW boxers engines or I'd have had a mashed up leg for sure! 2nd one was a guy saw his road on the right and swerved across me as I was in his blind spot. Whilst no fault was found on my part in both incidents, looking back, benefit of hindsight etc, I could have avoided both of those. So I think I'd agree with Spin on this.

[The Spin Doctor]

The last 2 lines are the important bit. You can't really teach it, you sometimes need to learn the hard way.

But you can at least stop it being a completely mind-numbing surprise.

[Dodgy69]

Been knocked off of two bikes and both claims were awarded against the drivers and not me. 1st one was a Mini Cab driver jumping a red light into the side of me. Thank God for BMW boxers engines or I'd have had a mashed up leg for sure! 2nd one was a guy saw his road on the right and swerved across me as I was in his blind spot. Whilst no fault was found on my part in both incidents, looking back, benefit of hindsight etc, I could have avoided both of those. So I think I'd agree with Spin on this.

How.???

[Taipan]

Been knocked off of two bikes and both claims were awarded against the drivers and not me. 1st one was a Mini Cab driver jumping a red light into the side of me. Thank God for BMW boxers engines or I'd have had a mashed up leg for sure! 2nd one was a guy saw his road on the right and swerved across me as I was in his blind spot. Whilst no fault was found on my part in both incidents, looking back, benefit of hindsight etc, I could have avoided both of those. So I think I'd agree with Spin on this.

How.???

1st. Kept an eye on the traffic to my left as well as ahead of me then Id have seen him coming through the red light.
2nd. Not sat in a blind spot.

[Mr. Dazzle]

I'm pretty firmly of the believe that every accident can be avoided (without having to go to ridiculous lengths). Of all the bike and car snafus I've been involved with I can't think of a single one where there was nothing I could have done.

Now, of course, the trick is to recognise that with foresight and not hindsight!

Throwing your hands up and saying "they're inevitable!" just means you're more likely to have the same accident again some point down the line.

[Yorick]

I once turned right into a side street, through a line of waiting cars.
The car at front of gap suddenly reversed, knocking me off.

That couldn't have been foreseen

[Horse]

I once turned right into a side street, through a line of waiting cars.
The car at front of gap suddenly reversed, knocking me off.

That couldn't have been foreseen

True. It's a shame that cars don't have special lights to show that they might reverse

[Yorick]

I once turned right into a side street, through a line of waiting cars.
The car at front of gap suddenly reversed, knocking me off.

That couldn't have been foreseen

True. It's a shame that cars don't have special lights to show that they might reverse

Save your smart arse comments for somebody who cares.

[The Spin Doctor]

The people that created this hysteria and the belief that everyone can die of old age if only we'd do their courses vex me.

In the workplace I'll have it all day long, in fact I'm fanatical that you should be able to come to work and be safe, so I support my QHSE guys to the n'th degree, they have more power than anyone else in the company and I want everyone to go home without experiencing any kind of upset. But in my hobbies and sports that are a bit dangerous then step back, I'll make my own choices about risk, don't preach your voodoo to me.

I'm hope you're not suggesting that I'm purveying hysteria and voodoo.

As I have said many times, here and in the other places, I don't have much faith in the standard approach to rider safety and training myself, and I've said so repeatedly since the 1990s, much to the annoyance of the people who do support those organisations. It's stuck pretty firmly in the safety thinking of the 1950s. I realised some years back that my thinking is far closer to the Safety II model:

Safety 2 five key principles.JPG (44.15 KiB) Viewed 605 times

One thing you'll never hear me say is that "riding is safe, done right". You might on a conventional training course. But you know and I know it's not, it never was and it never will be. There's always risk, but only when we understand the risks can we attempt to manage them. If we don't know the risks that spring from turning vehicles, there's no way to manage them effectively. You don't hear the aviation industry saying "shit happens" or "there was nothing we could do" when something goes wrong. They do their damndest to find out what went wrong, try to prevent it from happening again when possible, but also work bloody hard to give the guys and girls at the pointy end of the plane the knowledge firstly to recognise what's going wrong, and secondly what to do about it.

And lastly I'm not trying to sell you a course... I'm trying to change the way we ALL think about crashes. And I was actually offering you a free copy of a book I have written to try to educate riders into the SMIDSY crash... it's still on offer if you want it. It doesn't have to be read in bed, either.