Inevitable new bike thread

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Re: Inevitable new bike thread

Post by Horse »

Potter wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:41 pm Just out of interest, how many advanced urban defence type courses have you been on in the last twelve months?

I ask because you're at least five times more likely to be stabbed in the street than you are to be killed whilst riding your motorcycle. And that's just stabbed, if we consider all violent crime then it's many more times than that.

If you're nipping down the road for a pint of milk or a Cornetto
Jeez, mate, what is it with you and dangerous comestibles? :)

As it happens, part of my job sometimes involves working at the side of high speed roads, eg on the hard shoulder of motorways, or with coned-off roadworks. So I have had to take training to deal with those situations. And, FWIW, the first thing I do when getting out of a vehicle is to look for an escape route. Plus, I'll be ready to jump*, listening for tyre squeal or impact on a cone, or tyres along the rib line.

Also, I've had lone worker training too. As it happens, i co-wrote a roadside working training course and planned the lone working check-in procedures our team use.

Earlier in this thread, RockB mentioned avoiding the situation as an option. And that's how I mitigate assault. In fact, on Tuesday morning I crossed a road (no traffic) to avoid someone who looked dodgy. There are places I wouldn't go to at certain times, etc.
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* as I started typing the j, Spotify started playing Van Halen (2015 remix) :)
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Re: Inevitable new bike thread

Post by lostboy »

242 deaths by stabbing in the UK in 2019
45,627 knife/sharp instrument incidents in 2019

336 motorcyclists killed in the UK in 2019 - failing to pay proper attention was given as the cause for a majority of them.
16,224 casualties

So your nonsense figure of five times more likely to be stabbed than killed on a motorbike is just that, nonsense. You're actually far more likely to be stabbed. However if you choose to ride a bike then your chance of dying is significantly higher - not just than any other road user (including cyclists and pedestrians) but also of someone walking down the street taking their chances of being stabbed to death.

As with all these things, it's all down to participation levels. More people walk down the street or are at risk of being a victim of a knife crime but the likelihood of it happening is much smaller because the population that participate in that is huge.

Anyway, don't tell your mate - it won't help him to sell self-defence courses.
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Re: Inevitable new bike thread

Post by Yorick »

Pantomime season has come early this year

:banana-dance:
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Re: Inevitable new bike thread

Post by Dodgy69 »

Do I blame the villain or the victim. ?? 🤔
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Re: Inevitable new bike thread

Post by Yorick »

Dodgy knees wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:41 pm Do I blame the villain or the victim. ?? 🤔
He's behind you.
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Re: Inevitable new bike thread

Post by Horse »

Dodgy knees wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:41 pm Do I blame the villain or the victim. ?? 🤔
Where there's blame there's a claim!
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Re: Inevitable new bike thread

Post by JackyJoll »

Horse wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:53 pm
Dodgy knees wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:41 pm Do I blame the villain or the victim. ?? 🤔
Where there's blame there's a claim!
Where there’s a stabber, there’s jibber-jabber.
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Re: Inevitable new bike thread

Post by Whysub »

Horse wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:26 pm
I think what Spin meant was about comparisons with training available in other countries, making it THE best.

Although, even in the UK, regional police driving schools are never as good as Hendon, are they? ;)
I see what you mean now. Did my initial training in Conway, North Wales back in 2000. All my refresher courses since have been undertaken at two regional centres, but not Hendon, hence I never do the "Met shuffle"

The intensity of training also depends on whether you will be riding marked or unmarked bikes, as the unmarked is just that little bit more.

I have ridden with trained riders from Czechia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Poland, Lithuania, Hungary, Germany and France, and from out discussions, their training is all pretty much similar to that in the UK, but then they all ride marked bike, not unmarked.
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Re: Inevitable new bike thread

Post by Horse »

Whysub wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:46 pm... not Hendon, hence I never do the "Met shuffle"

The intensity of training also depends on whether you will be riding marked or unmarked bikes, as the unmarked is just that little bit more.

I have ridden with trained riders from Czechia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Poland, Lithuania, Hungary, Germany and France, and from out discussions, their training is all pretty much similar to that in the UK, but then they all ride marked bike, not unmarked.
I've had the luxury of civvie training to US standards as it was 1992 - 1994. At that time, some content developed in the 1980s was well ahead of Roadcraft (blue book then), it would only get anywhere near with the 1995 revision.

FWIW when I did the 'advanced' course, we had a trafpol with us. He really struggled with some of the riding, blamed his training, said he couldn't do anything differently!

However, several of the UK riders said that combining uk and us training would have made a great format.
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Re: Inevitable new bike thread

Post by Yorick »

The last 2 lines are the important bit. You can't really teach it, you sometimes need to learn the hard way.
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Re: Inevitable new bike thread

Post by The Spin Doctor »

Noggin wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:20 pm For me, if I don't make light of things to do with the less fun side of bikes, it becomes just that, not fun

I don't think I 'trivialise' because that implies that I don't care/learn/think

I definitely learn from every incident - not just the ones that hurt/cost. I learnt a lot from the guy that forced me to the other side of the road and still didn't stop pulling out! I learnt a lot from crashing the blackbird a couple of times. More from crashing the TLs. But I really have learnt as much, if not more, from incidents that 'could have been worse' if I hadn't reacted the way I did. But every incident (avoided or crashed) is different so we are always learning. I read your's and Horse's posts, your stuff on FB. And listen to people more experienced and learn when I get to ride with them

Here, I don't think anyone is Actually trivialising things. Yes it could read like that, but you have a bunch of pretty experienced riders who almost certainly all know that we never stop learning, many of whom are also parents, showing concern for another guy who's son walked away from what 'could' have been bloody serious. I don't disagree with the things you say and it's interesting reading - I hope it doesn't stop Iccy posting updates on how his son gets on when he goes back out

But I do take issue with the word trivialise. That may be how you read it but almost certainly not how it is written/meant

We all know how dangerous our hobby is. We all know we can learn more. And I suspect that I'm not the only one that tries to learn by reading and from riding with others. But if we concentrate on the danger side of the sport/hobby, focus on what might happen, try to eliminate those things, then we lose part of what makes it fun and a passion?

Yes, keep learning, but if we make jokes or don't focus on things, we aren't trivialising at all. Just keeping it a bit light in the immediate aftermath of a scary situation for one of our friends and his family
There's a difference between approaching a serious topic light-heartedly, and expressing a view that implies a serious topic isn't serious - which is trivialising the issue, and that's exactly what we do if we conflate the potential outcome from spilling a coffee with the potential outcome of falling off a motorcycle.

Likewise, the 'shit happens' mindset. No it doesn't, if you look at most motorcycle crashes like this one. We have data on crashes at junctions which has been collected from all over the world, and here in the UK goes back seventy-odd years. The research on that data goes back to the 60s. And - as I explained at length - the rider could almost always have predicted it, and far more often than not could therefore have taken steps to avoid it.

The problem is that we simply don't teach new riders (or drivers come to that) about why things like this happen. So they go out on the road on a nice new shiny bike and bounce off a car on day two. It's not their fault for using their imagination to predict a situation they'd not been prepared for.

But we REALLY don't help by saying "ah well, it's all part of the rich tapestry of learning to ride". Every week the newsfeed I use to prepare stories for my Elevenses webcast is full of crash reports... this list is are those reported between Tuesday morning and last night, and exclude two fatals involving stolen bikes:
  • Ballycastle crash claims life of motorcyclist

    Road blocked in North Tawton after car and motorbike crash - updates

    Police appeal for dashcam footage after motorcyclist dies in Weston-Super-Mare crash

    Motorcyclist dies in crash with car on A361 in North Devon

    Motorcyclist suffers 'life-changing' injuries after Alma Road crash
    Plymouth Live

    Updates: Motorcyclist dies in crash on A40 at Dursley Cross
    Gloucestershire Live

    Motorcyclist killed in crash on Dorset road

    61-year-old dies after motorcycle accident in Cotswolds

    Motorbiker seriously injured in Ipswich crash
Frankly I find that too depressing to talk about. So I don't.

As you say, we WILL learn from experience... IF we let ourselves... but we don't do that by pretending that the risk of fall off is like knocking a hot coffee over. I noticed that three of those riders who died were 30, 50's and 61... so probably not complete novices. So maybe learning from experience isn't QUITE so easy as we believe.
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Re: Inevitable new bike thread

Post by The Spin Doctor »

Horse wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:26 pm
Whysub wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:48 pm
The Spin Doctor wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:05 am
JOOC who told you it was THE best?
Everyone. It is the most difficult course to pass, even getting an application accepted is difficult.
I think what Spin meant was about comparisons with training available in other countries, making it THE best.

Although, even in the UK, regional police driving schools are never as good as Hendon, are they? ;)
And you also need an independent assessment, and a comparison with what else is available in the broader field. Otherwise it's a bit like Carlsberg.
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Re: Inevitable new bike thread

Post by The Spin Doctor »

Potter wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:41 pm I applaud your passion for the thing that you are passionate about
That's appreciated.
I appreciate your offer and I'd struggle to put up an argument against good training,
Do you know what? I'd be more than happy if you tried because that allows a dialogue from which we both benefit.

The people who are toughest to train are those who believe taking training automatically makes them better riders. And that's because they often come in thinking it's turning up and taking the course that matters, not what happens during the day. They are looking for confirmation of what they think they already know, not to be challenged - they are essentially 'badge collectors'. I had a guy like that years ago who was on the old VD forum, and he wrote a scathing report to his RoSPA group about how I had gone back to basics with him and taught him 'learner stuff' like how to read road signs. It clearly never entered his head that the reason I went back to basics was because he'd forgotten most of it. He could spout off about limit points and IPSGA till the cows came home, and why engine braking was better than using the brakes... and out on the road he failed to spot junction signs which would have warned him about a turning concealed by a bend where he had to brake hard to avoid a turning car, or to use his mirrors when slowing down a few metres ahead of an HGV doing 50+ mph!
however, consider this, a ​geezer I know is one of these tactical urban survival experts, he teaches people how to appropriately deal with a potentially violent encounter. He's ex-military and good at it and he makes a living from it. He lives and breathes this stuff.

Just out of interest, how many advanced urban defence type courses have you been on in the last twelve months?

I ask because you're at least five times more likely to be stabbed in the street than you are to be killed whilst riding your motorcycle. And that's just stabbed, if we consider all violent crime then it's many more times than that. If you're nipping down the road for a pint of milk or a Cornetto without going on one of these courses, especially if you're a young man, then you're taking a big risk... I could offer a pretty similar argument asking how you reconcile letting anyone you love walk the streets without doing multiple advanced urban defence courses, seeing as the risk is more significant.
Others have questioned the numbers, the answer is to look at micromorts.

Data aside, the point is a reasonable one. But much the same answers apply. Know the risks. If you hang out with city centre gangs of teenage drug runners and carry a knife yourself, then you significantly up your exposure to the risk. It doesn't mean you won't be mugged on the way back from Sainsburys but our choices have consequences. So we need to be able to make informed choices... which leads me back to my original point about riders simply not being aware of how, when, where and what bike crashes happen or what they can do about them.
I take my parenting seriously, but since he's been 5yrs old I let my boy ride/race motorcycles without an advanced course, I don't want to do one and he doesn't want to do one and I don't force it, am I a bad parent for this?
I'm not offering advanced training as most people understand it ;)

I'm offering 'insight' training these days. And that's all about giving you the tools to make better decisions.

And (whisper it...) provided you don't just think "Spin's talking out his arse again", this dialogue IS undoubtedly achieving that.

And the book isn't training either - it's knowledge :)
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Re: Inevitable new bike thread

Post by Asian Boss »

Don't worry about all that 'advanced training' bollocks, just fit a loud exhaust and gan it up on t'back wheel. :thumbup:
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Re: Inevitable new bike thread

Post by Asian Boss »

Potter wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:41 pm
The Spin Doctor wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:15 am And one final word before I go out and run a www.survivalskills.co.uk rider training course...

The expression "live and learn" is the wrong way round. We need to "LEARN IN ORDER TO LIVE".
I applaud your passion for the thing that you are passionate about, I appreciate your offer and I'd struggle to put up an argument against good training, however, consider this, a ​geezer I know is one of these tactical urban survival experts, he teaches people how to appropriately deal with a potentially violent encounter. He's ex-military and good at it and he makes a living from it. He lives and breathes this stuff.

Just out of interest, how many advanced urban defence type courses have you been on in the last twelve months?

I ask because you're at least five times more likely to be stabbed in the street than you are to be killed whilst riding your motorcycle. And that's just stabbed, if we consider all violent crime then it's many more times than that. If you're nipping down the road for a pint of milk or a Cornetto without going on one of these courses, especially if you're a young man, then you're taking a big risk.

I take my parenting seriously, but since he's been 5yrs old I let my boy ride/race motorcycles without an advanced course, I don't want to do one and he doesn't want to do one and I don't force it, am I a bad parent for this?

I could offer a pretty similar argument asking how you reconcile letting anyone you love walk the streets without doing multiple advanced urban defence courses, seeing as the risk is more significant.


Show your kids how to bring the fire to a brawl. Or paralyze a woman.

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Re: Inevitable new bike thread

Post by Taipan »

Been knocked off of two bikes and both claims were awarded against the drivers and not me. 1st one was a Mini Cab driver jumping a red light into the side of me. Thank God for BMW boxers engines or I'd have had a mashed up leg for sure! 2nd one was a guy saw his road on the right and swerved across me as I was in his blind spot. Whilst no fault was found on my part in both incidents, looking back, benefit of hindsight etc, I could have avoided both of those. So I think I'd agree with Spin on this.
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Re: Inevitable new bike thread

Post by The Spin Doctor »

Yorick wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:59 am The last 2 lines are the important bit. You can't really teach it, you sometimes need to learn the hard way.
But you can at least stop it being a completely mind-numbing surprise.
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Re: Inevitable new bike thread

Post by Dodgy69 »

Taipan wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:30 am Been knocked off of two bikes and both claims were awarded against the drivers and not me. 1st one was a Mini Cab driver jumping a red light into the side of me. Thank God for BMW boxers engines or I'd have had a mashed up leg for sure! 2nd one was a guy saw his road on the right and swerved across me as I was in his blind spot. Whilst no fault was found on my part in both incidents, looking back, benefit of hindsight etc, I could have avoided both of those. So I think I'd agree with Spin on this.

How.???
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Re: Inevitable new bike thread

Post by Taipan »

Dodgy knees wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:47 pm
Taipan wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:30 am Been knocked off of two bikes and both claims were awarded against the drivers and not me. 1st one was a Mini Cab driver jumping a red light into the side of me. Thank God for BMW boxers engines or I'd have had a mashed up leg for sure! 2nd one was a guy saw his road on the right and swerved across me as I was in his blind spot. Whilst no fault was found on my part in both incidents, looking back, benefit of hindsight etc, I could have avoided both of those. So I think I'd agree with Spin on this.

How.???
1st. Kept an eye on the traffic to my left as well as ahead of me then Id have seen him coming through the red light.
2nd. Not sat in a blind spot.
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Re: Inevitable new bike thread

Post by Mr. Dazzle »

I'm pretty firmly of the believe that every accident can be avoided (without having to go to ridiculous lengths). Of all the bike and car snafus I've been involved with I can't think of a single one where there was nothing I could have done.

Now, of course, the trick is to recognise that with foresight and not hindsight!

Throwing your hands up and saying "they're inevitable!" just means you're more likely to have the same accident again some point down the line.