Non-approved gear & costs of CE testing

[Horse]

Interesting article:

https://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/r ... ake-danger

"Everyone loves a bargain, and while some motorcycle clothing might seem pricey in your local dealer or other specialist bike kit shop, the internet is full of cheap gear that promises to protect you at a fraction of the cost.

Amazon and eBay are two marketplaces with a huge choice, while adverts fill riders’ feeds on Facebook with what appears to be top-quality gear at tempting prices.

But is it safe?"

[Hot_Air]

Thanks @Horse, it’s an interesting if concerning read. Shame on Amazon, eBay and Facebook for failing to take seriously the problem of fake/illegal gear.

Also, it’s fascinating that the illegal, cheap leathers could have passed the AAA test for abrasion resistance, etc. But companies like Dainese (often) and AStars (sometimes) sell some leathers that only manage a meagre AA rating.

Surely, decent leathers ought to manage a AAA rating (especially from premium-priced brands like Dainese)?

[Cousin Jack]

I often wonder about CE gear. I usually ride with a full textile suit, with shoulder, elbow, knee and hip armour. Plus proper boots.

Back in the day I usually wore a cheap nylon anorak, or a donkey jacket. Trousers were jeans. On my feet it was wellies in the wet, otherwise often winklepickers.

I didn't die then, I hope I don't die now, but I have a suspicion that what I am wearing has little bearing on the issue.

[Skub]

I often wonder about CE gear. I usually ride with a full textile suit, with shoulder, elbow, knee and hip armour. Plus proper boots.

Back in the day I usually wore a cheap nylon anorak, or a donkey jacket. Trousers were jeans. On my feet it was wellies in the wet, otherwise often winklepickers.

I didn't die then, I hope I don't die now, but I have a suspicion that what I am wearing has little bearing on the issue.

But you may die with more authority without the right gear.

[MrLongbeard]

Shame on Amazon, eBay and Facebook for failing to take seriously the problem of fake/illegal gear.

They each have millions and millions of individual listings, unless someone reports a listing they can't do jack , they're not omnipotent.
Do you complain to the local car boot sale, the local market, or the local newspaper for facilitating the sale of counterfeit goods, maybe have a word with your ISP for allowing Wish to be accessible to you?

Besides the fact they're' not legally obliged and not responsible for it, Certain online market fronts (which may or may not include the big names) are doing things to address this, but it's a task so mammoth, it'll take yonks to filter down to buyers and then, alas, likely only to be the tip of the iceberg.

The alternative, close Amazon, Facebook market, ALiexpress, Wish, Ebay etc etc.....

[Hot_Air]

If the legal responsibilities changed, the online retailers would soon find solutions to the problem of illegal gear. They have excellent resources and smart people to bring to bear, but it may take a change in the law for them to act.

While the likes of Amazon and eBay aren’t omnipotent, they have considerable machine learning and AI resources at their disposal. But without making them legally responsible for ensuring what they sell is legal, nothing will change.

Bricks and mortar shops have this responsibility, so why shouldn’t online shops too?

[MrLongbeard]

If the legal responsibilities changed, the online retailers would soon find solutions to the problem of illegal gear. They have excellent resources and smart people to bring to bear, but it may take a change in the law for them to act.

If the legal framework changed to make them liable, they'd not have the majority of things that are on there now, no resellers or small businesses at all, yes they have smart people and resources but not enough.

While the likes of Amazon and eBay aren’t omnipotent, they have considerable machine learning and AI resources at their disposal. But without making them legally responsible for ensuring what they sell is legal, nothing will change.

They aren't selling it, and, Machine learning & AI ain't worth jack in this instance, you need a real person reading every DoC and every report and then matching it with a product, and they'd best be on their toes too as the amount of fake reports out there are startling.

Bricks and mortar shops have this responsibility, so why shouldn’t online shops too?

Because they are neither the manufacture, retailer, producer, importer or authorised representative (unlike bricks and mortar shops), all they are is a market font, a little old lady taking a quid to allow you entrance to the car boot sale, or good old Burt at the newsagent who will let you put a card in his window, just on a much much larger scale.

I don't disagree that they should have some responsibility, which is handy because I earn part of my wages off the back of it and know what they are doing to address it, but as with a lot of things technology has yet again outpaced legislation.

[crust]

Or maybe buyers should put a little more thought into purchasing an item of protective gear - if its cheap and off the internet then maybe it's crap/fake?

Or is the concept of people being responsible for their own destiny gone.

Cavat emptor, Rodney.

[Horse]

Or maybe buyers should put a little more thought into purchasing an item of protective gear - if its cheap and off the internet then maybe it's crap/fake?

The irony being that the cheapo suit wasn't far off a pass.

Cavat emptor, Rodney.

As PV points out, that's the other meaning of CE.

[Yorick]

Or maybe buyers should put a little more thought into purchasing an item of protective gear - if its cheap and off the internet then maybe it's crap/fake?

Or is the concept of people being responsible for their own destiny gone.

Cavat emptor, Rodney.

That's right, Dave

[The Spin Doctor]

Or maybe buyers should put a little more thought into purchasing an item of protective gear - if its cheap and off the internet then maybe it's crap/fake?

The irony being that the cheapo suit wasn't far off a pass.

Cavat emptor, Rodney.

As PV points out, that's the other meaning of CE.

I talked about this years ago... I did a feature on my FB page after Gateshead trading standards seized a load of fake gear. What caused them act was that the helmets and leathers were designed to look like branded kit, even down to the labels.

Fake Britain also did an expose... the fake AGV helmets had no protective function at all, but they tested some leathers that looked a bit like Dainese gear... and they only just failed the CE level 1 test. The Dainese only just passed (and weren't CE certificated anyway).

[MrLongbeard]

The irony being that the cheapo suit wasn't far off a pass.

The caveat being 'only with regards to those few tests they undertook' there are 101 requirements it must meet which they didn't look at.

[Supermofo]

Just reminded me to watch the Bennetts video on youtube. It popped up the other day but was an hour long.

There are some leather jackets like the RST one I like that I saw the other day that are only A rated. Bugger how they manage that whilst charging £300 whilst also selling £150 jackets with AAA rating

[Hot_Air]

@Supermofo I agree with you, and there are even some 1-piece trackday leathers that are only A rated

Part of the RST IOM TT Collection, the Grandstand Leather Suit is designed to protect you at the speeds of Isle of Man TT! CE Certified to Level A

https://www.rst-moto.com/motorcycle-lea ... -suit.html
https://www.rst-moto.com/motorcycle-lea ... -suit.html

[The Spin Doctor]

@Supermofo I agree with you, and there are even some 1-piece trackday leathers that are only A rated

Part of the RST IOM TT Collection, the Grandstand Leather Suit is designed to protect you at the speeds of Isle of Man TT! CE Certified to Level A

https://www.rst-moto.com/motorcycle-lea ... -suit.html
https://www.rst-moto.com/motorcycle-lea ... -suit.html

I mentioned that on Elevenses a few weeks ago.

[Supermofo]

Watched the vid yesterday. Good watch and interesting esp that potentially that suit could come in at a reasonable price and get AAA with a little work. Whilst Dainese and Rukka get away with the bare minium or dodge ratings entirely.

[The Spin Doctor]

Watched the vid yesterday. Good watch and interesting esp that potentially that suit could come in at a reasonable price and get AAA with a little work. Whilst Dainese and Rukka get away with the bare minium or dodge ratings entirely.

I'm watching it in installments... the protectors were (predictably) pants, but the leather and stitching held up... and remember it's not just a case of Dainese and Alpinestars 'getting away with' the barest minimum... they ACTIVELY PUSHED to lower standards.

Getting fabrics up to a higher rating is a bit trickier... but it's far from impossible.

[Hot_Air]

it's not just a case of Dainese and Alpinestars 'getting away with' the barest minimum... they ACTIVELY PUSHED to lower standards.

Since it’s the Italians who pushed for lower protection standards, could Brexit offer the opportunity for higher British standards?

Often, it’s UK companies that have been the first to achieve the highest safety standards. And the initial (more robust) CE standards were based on the Cambridge University’s work.

The UK has pedigree for top-level protection (BKS, Hideout, Scott Leathers, D30, Knox, Forefield). Surely, these British companies would benefit from higher standards because they could out-compete those pesky Italians? They might have beaten us at football, but we can beat them when it’s comes to protective gear

[Horse]

Since it’s the Italians who pushed for lower protection standards, could Brexit offer the opportunity for higher British standards?

Voluntary?

Paul Varnsverry is continually reporting advertisers to Facebook and Trading Standards for dodgy suits, to little or no avail.

[Hot_Air]

Voluntary might be the way to go for higher standards. It would let the best clothing manufacturers differentiate themselves (why not have 4A and 5A ratings, like a five star system?),

But I’d like to see standards improve over time. Eventually, could we get rid of the ‘A’ rating to make ‘AA’ the entry level?

Also, I’d love the UK to make it mandatory for this info to be transparent online. British manufacturers (RST, Oxford Products, BKS, Hideout) tend to be the most transparent; online transparency would only be a hassle for some overseas companies.