Soldiers A & C's Trial Collapsing

[Cousin Jack]

I'll just leave this here.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... allymurphy

No trials to collapse because no one was ever charged.

One wonders at the fantastic evidence-gathering skills of the Coroner 50 years after the event.

[slowsider]

I'll just leave this here.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... allymurphy

No trials to collapse because no one was ever charged.

Does that mean all cased where the IRA murdered people, and nobody was tried, they can be re-opened as well?

Remind me again, what were the Paras there for?

[slowsider]

I'll just leave this here.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... allymurphy

No trials to collapse because no one was ever charged.

One wonders at the fantastic evidence-gathering skills of the Coroner 50 years after the event.

as you said earlier...

There's rather an awful stench of double standards when it comes to [...] a search for justice.

That ^

[Yambo]

I'll just leave this here.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... allymurphy

No trials to collapse because no one was ever charged.

Does that mean all cased where the IRA murdered people, and nobody was tried, they can be re-opened as well?

On March 10th 1971 three unarmed and off duty soldiers were lured away from a Belfast bar and brutally murdered by members of a republican organisation. One of them was only 17 years of age. The murderers liked to call themselves members of the Irish Republican Army but of course, they readily drop the 'Army' bit because this atrocity and many others would quite easily be classed as a war crime and that wouldn't do, would it?

Nobody has ever been convicted of the killings but they were lured away from the bar by women and presumably shot by men. One wonders if, under questioning today, anyone involved in the murders would have the same excellent recall as those who gave evidence at the Ballymurphy inquest. I wonder also if anyone involved would come forward with a statement perhaps that might give closure to the parents of the murdered soldiers (two of them were brothers) but I doubt it.

They weren't Paras by the way but all members of the Royal Highland Fusiliers. The case could be re-opened but as charging and hopefully convicting people doesn't fit the current narrative of changing the history of the 'Troubles' nobody is holding their breath waiting for developments.

[Yambo]

Remind me again, what were the Paras there for?

The strike marks on the Henry Taggert Hall (they might even still be there) were not caused by soldiers. Clearly though, they were caused by unarmed civilians.

[Mussels]

I'll just leave this here.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... allymurphy

No trials to collapse because no one was ever charged.

So it was all the fault of the English? It might be but I'll keep an open mind on that one.

[slowsider]

I'll just leave this here.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... allymurphy

No trials to collapse because no one was ever charged.

Does that mean all cased where the IRA murdered people, and nobody was tried, they can be re-opened as well?

On March 10th 1971 three unarmed and off duty soldiers were lured away from a Belfast bar and brutally murdered by members of a republican organisation. One of them was only 17 years of age. The murderers liked to call themselves members of the Irish Republican Army but of course, they readily drop the 'Army' bit because this atrocity and many others would quite easily be classed as a war crime and that wouldn't do, would it?

Nobody has ever been convicted of the killings but they were lured away from the bar by women and presumably shot by men. One wonders if, under questioning today, anyone involved in the murders would have the same excellent recall as those who gave evidence at the Ballymurphy inquest. I wonder also if anyone involved would come forward with a statement perhaps that might give closure to the parents of the murdered soldiers (two of them were brothers) but I doubt it.

They weren't Paras by the way but all members of the Royal Highland Fusiliers. The case could be re-opened but as charging and hopefully convicting people doesn't fit the current narrative of changing the history of the 'Troubles' nobody is holding their breath waiting for developments.

You are resorting to emotive stuff now. Potter made a post ^^about expectations for those who join an army, any army. If 17 is too young, then why did the Army deploy him on active service? If unarmed and off-duty is the issue, how that is qualitatively any different to the case with which you began the thread? And I'm sure you would also classify shooting civilians as a War crime, especially if the same unit repeated it.

Surely the good-guys shouldn't be killing non-combatants, it conflates them with the terrorists.

[Hoonercat]

I'll just leave this here.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... allymurphy

No trials to collapse because no one was ever charged.

So it was all the fault of the English? It might be but I'll keep an open mind on that one.

It's quite possible that Welsh and Scottish soldiers were involved in killing 10 "entirely innocent" people*, as it was the British army rather than the English army.

*Some of whom were shot in the back, others shot while tending the wounded, and one allegedly shot a second time while in custody. Not a great day for the British army, despite the provocation

[Yambo]

You are resorting to emotive stuff now. Potter made a post ^^about expectations for those who join an army, any army. If 17 is too young, then why did the Army deploy him on active service? If unarmed and off-duty is the issue, how that is qualitatively any different to the case with which you began the thread? And I'm sure you would also classify shooting civilians as a War crime, especially if the same unit repeated it.

Surely the good-guys shouldn't be killing non-combatants, it conflates them with the terrorists.

My bad.

Of course, none of this stuff is about truth, justice or emotion is it. McCann was running away when he was shot because he didn't want the truth to come out when he faced justice. This inquest was not about truth or justice either. The Republicans/Nationalists (and for that matter, the Loyalist 'paramilitaries') don't want the truth to come out about their activities, you know, the murdering, bombings, the protection rackets, the 'punishment shootings' etc etc. They'd hardly be able to claim the 'romantic freedom fighter' high ground they are trying to develop. It's all about power and people should be wary - a lot of those that want power have shown many times what they are prepared to do with it.

Now you may say that Jean McConville faced justice but her murderers certainly don't want to face the same justice or even our comparatively rather moderate form of justice. The'bad men (and women) don't like the truth and certainly don't want it coming out. But,"if we can make the Brits look bad then go for it full tilt". I could give you many other instances where paramilitary 'justice' was simply designed to shut people up. They bang on about justice and needing closure but have no intention of returning the favour to others, like the families of the 3 fusiliers or the 170 soldiers killed during 1972 or the 8 year old girl in Claudy. I look forward to the Warrenpoint inquest in 2029 when the Paras might get similar ruling.

Those people 'demonstrating' on the streets of the Ballymurphy estate (@ hoonercat, it was 3 days mate, so "not a great 3 days") were used as human shields by the men with guns. If they knew they were providing cover for the gunmen, were they innocent civilians? The bother in Ballymurphy marked the start of internment, another black mark against the Brits but I'm sure to their way of thinking, locking people up without trial was one way of preventing violence. The USA are still doing it much to their shame. Anyway, people died. I'm sure the men with guns are only too glad it wasn't them, just some poor, innocent person that had been encouraged to get out onto the streets. They went on to show that they didn't give a shit about the man (or woman or children) on the street. If it was in the name of Republicanism then they were justifiable deaths. If it was death by soldier, completely unjustified. That needs to be addressed.

I still think that the whole N.I. thing is more than "a bad day" for the British. For sure, British soldiers have carried out unjustified killings but they are very much in the minority when it comes to violent deaths in Ulster. All deaths should have been properly investigated at the time and soldiers should probably have gone to jail. But that's easy to say and considerably more difficult to do. Many deaths were not properly investigated and the violent men were hardly going to put there hands up and say "Yeah, it was me. Sorry." and soldiers were going to say "I thought he/she was armed and my life and the lives of others were in danger." It was a very messy time and an inquest 50 years after the events? Predictable.

Just over 100 years ago the British got it wrong and Ireland should have got independence - all of the island of Ireland that is. Allowing the 6 counties to remain as part of the UK was not a good idea. The sooner the demographic changes and they have another referendum where they vote to leave the UK, the better. It won't stop the trouble of course, there'll be trouble on the island of Ireland until they all realise they're all Irish and there's way to many not ready to make that distinction yet. But it will be somebody else's problem.

This is my own opinion - it may well offend some of our members and my friends in N.I. but so be it.

Anyway, I'm out of here until such time as other court cases fall apart when I may just make a little cheer and pop a bottle. I'll pop an even bigger bottle if a few of the other deaths (not attributed to soldiers) start making it to the courts and the headlines. I doubt there'll be as many witnesses with tack sharp memories for those though.

[irie]

... Just over 100 years ago the British got it wrong and Ireland should have got independence - all of the island of Ireland that is. Allowing the 6 counties to remain as part of the UK was not a good idea. The sooner the demographic changes and they have another referendum where they vote to leave the UK, the better. It won't stop the trouble of course, there'll be trouble on the island of Ireland until they all realise they're all Irish and there's way to many not ready to make that distinction yet. But it will be somebody else's problem.

This is my own opinion - it may well offend some of our members and my friends in N.I. but so be it.

Also my opinion.

[Noggin]

My Grannie was born in NI (protestant family) - her Dad was a policeman. When she was about 13, she was sent to the police station in her town with a message for her Dad. As she arrived, a policeman was shot on the steps of the police station

She was born in early 1900's. There have been armed religious differences for all that time (and a lot longer) - although in the 90's/early 2000's I'm reasonably sure the differences were religious in name only; pretty sure that money/arms/drugs were far more meaningful to the 'gangs' but it was 'better' for publicity to operate under the religious grievances.

After the Good Friday Agreement, people I talked to where I lived (West Country) were happy because there wouldn't be any more shooting (?). Ok, kneecapping by gun was reduced massively. But I was told it was easier to fix a kneecapping by gun (usually, apparently, shot through the bone above or below the kneecap) than it was to repair a knee destroyed by a baseball bat.

I've always thought that agreement was a complete sham. Protected the terrorists from past and future wrong doings. WTAF?? So much for "we don't negotiate with terrorists" Nah, we just roll over and forgive, pretend to forget and let them get on with pretty much what they want

However, Yambo writes the way I think far better than I ever could.

Very glad the 'trials' are collapsing

[slowsider]

The differences were/are political not religious, but go back to a time when religion was politics.

If your grannie was 13 when the RIC were being targeted during the war of independence, she was born in Ireland.

[Druid]

My grandfather was born in Cork in the 1900's. He was born in the United Kingdom

[Noggin]

If your grannie was 13 when the RIC were being targeted during the war of independence, she was born in Ireland.

She was born in what is now NI We never really talked about any of it - I am not even sure when I heard that story but my Dad wouldn't have talked about it s Grannie must have done at one time (probably only the once knowing my family!!)

My favourite Grannie story is when some IRA fundraisers stopped her in Hyde Park to ask for donations. After she said no they got a bit pushy.

Like many older women of the time, she carried a handbag full of Stuff!

Being a feisty anti IRA woman, she used the handbag to smack both men about the head.

When they called over a copper to ask that she be arrested for assault, he responded with "I'm so sorry but I must have been distracted as I didn't see anything of the sort" and offered Grannie his arm to escort her safely away!!

Somewhat off topic but I like the story

[Yambo]

Prosecutors in Northern Ireland have dropped two more 'legacy' cases. Soldiers B and F will now not face trials.

Soldier F was charged with murdering two people and the attempted murder of 5 others on Bloody Sunday, while soldier B was charged with murdering a 15 year old boy during Operation Motorman in 1972. Op Motorman was when the army removed the barricades etc in Derry (and Belfast) to open up the 'No Go' areas.

I think we can expect a few more dropped prosecutions over the next few months but the Dennis Hutchings trial is still scheduled for early October having been put back repeatedly due to covid apparently. Maybe they are hoping he'll die in the meantime.

[slowsider]

Saw that.

What happens next?

Maybe not much. The issue is so complicated and fraught that there is a tendency to kick the can down the road until the alleged perpetrators, who are now elderly, die. This so-called “biological solution” overlooks the fact that families’ grief and trauma can pass down generations.

The government is under pressure from Tories and veterans’ groups to shield veterans from prosecution, but a de facto amnesty would probably also apply to members of the IRA and other paramilitary groups. British and Irish officials agreed last month to seek a joint way out of the morass. Some campaigners advocate offering alleged perpetrators conditional amnesty in return for disclosure, a recognition that it may be too late for justice, but not for truth.

[Cousin Jack]

What was needed was a "Truth and Reconciliation" process. Find out the truth (if that was ever possible) and try to learn to live with it.

That might have been possible as part of the GF Agreement, but this far down the road "Truth" is buried to deep in the past and no one in Ireland wants "Reconciliation" anyway.

[slowsider]

What was needed was a "Truth and Reconciliation" process. Find out the truth (if that was ever possible) and try to learn to live with it.

That might have been possible as part of the GF Agreement, but this far down the road "Truth" is buried to deep in the past and no one in Ireland wants "Reconciliation" anyway.

You say that as if it's in contrast to anyone in Britain.

[Skub]

no one in Ireland wants "Reconciliation" anyway.

With the most commonly heard,loudest,yet minority voices yes,that's true. It serves their purpose to perpetuate tribal division,it's their sole reason to exist,however ordinary folk here are like ordinary folk anywhere,they just want to do their ordinary things.

[Cousin Jack]

With the most commonly heard,loudest,yet minority voices yes,that's true. It serves their purpose to perpetuate tribal division,it's their sole reason to exist,however ordinary folk here are like ordinary folk anywhere,they just want to do their ordinary things.

And yet those ordinary folk vote for politicians (on both sides) who want to continue that tribal divide. If they didn't the tribes might disapear.