SMARTening motorways

[Horse]

My expectations are that I can have the problem fixed quicker than they can notice me being there,

There's a sensor loop in the road surface. Unless your vehicle doesn't trigger it, they'll know.

What vehicle do you have, more importantly, what's its 0-70 time pulling out. Because that's pretty much how far back up the road you need to be able to see.

[Horse]

AFAIK, no. The layout of refuge areas puts you some way back from where traffic should be travelling.

[MrLongbeard]

There's a sensor loop in the road surface. Unless your vehicle doesn't trigger it, they'll know.

What vehicle do you have, more importantly, what's its 0-70 time pulling out. Because that's pretty much how far back up the road you need to be able to see.
[/quote]

0 - 60 time is 8 seconds, as said I'll risk it

Does getting picked up by the loop automatically close the left hand lane? That would seem a good idea but there will be things I haven't considered...

That almost sounds like common sense.

[Horse]

That almost sounds like common sense.

To what purpose? If you're in an emergency area the your vehicle is already further away from traffic than it would be if stopped on a hard shoulder. Plus there's barriers to wait behind.

There's already enough concern about people ignoring Red X signals. If you start getting drivers used to "Oh it's just someone stopped in one of the lay-bys", then they might be less likely to take action when a lane is physically blocked.

[MrLongbeard]

That almost sounds like common sense.

To what purpose? If you're in an emergency area the your vehicle is already further away from traffic than it would be if stopped on a hard shoulder. Plus there's barriers to wait behind.

There's already enough concern about people ignoring Red X signals. If you start getting drivers used to "Oh it's just someone stopped in one of the lay-bys", then they might be less likely to take action when a lane is physically blocked.

Well it's my experiences that as soon as Highways shows up to a stranded vehicle in these bays the Red X's are turned on for the inside lane, if they need them why don't I?

For what purpose? why to allow me to reach a safe speed to re-enter the carriageway of course, then they could turn off automatically when I'm gone.

If people are ignoring red X's they need ticketing and / or some learning beating into them, and as said the red X's get thrown up as soon as Highways turn up anyway (in my experience) this way the amount of time the red X is displayed is lessened.
Although I'm one of those that do wonder why the inside lane is closed when a vehicle is in a bay when I drive on by

[Lutin]

It really worries me that so called smart motorways rely totally on drivers observing, and reacting to, the overhead sign red X's.

A couple of years ago (well, pre-covid at any rate) I was driving back from Belfast City airport (or what ever they've named it this week) and came across the aforesaid red X's over the inside and middle lanes. Myself and most other drivers moved over into the only remaining outside lane. Not so at least two other vehicles. We all passed under two instances of the red X's and it was only when we actually got right up to the reason for the red X's that the other vehicles finally moved over and had to barge their way into the outside lane.

The reason for the red X's? A totalled (ie smashed to bits) car and accompanying Police vehicle (lit up like the proverbial Christmas tree) lying across the two inside lanes.

If "smart" motorways have to rely on people then they are only as "smart" as the idiots driving on the motorway.

[Rockburner]

It really worries me that so called smart motorways rely totally on drivers observing, and reacting to, the overhead sign red X's.

A couple of years ago (well, pre-covid at any rate) I was driving back from Belfast City airport (or what ever they've named it this week) and came across the aforesaid red X's over the inside and middle lanes. Myself and most other drivers moved over into the only remaining outside lane. Not so at least two other vehicles. We all passed under two instances of the red X's and it was only when we actually got right up to the reason for the red X's that the other vehicles finally moved over and had to barge their way into the outside lane.

The reason for the red X's? A totalled (ie smashed to bits) car and accompanying Police vehicle (lit up like the proverbial Christmas tree) lying across the two inside lanes.

If "smart" motorways have to rely on people then they are only as "smart" as the idiots driving on the motorway.

To be honest - it sometimes doesn't help that the red Xs (and other warning signs) are often turned on up to a mile prior to the actual 'incident'.

Yes - I know you need to give people plenty of warning - but the vast majority of drivers these days (that I've observed) completely ignore the signs until they can actually see the reason for them: mostly because they've learned that the signs are (in my experience) warning of something that has already been tidied up, and the signs have been left on - which teaches people the signs are meaningless.

It takes a minute to travel a mile at 60, and when you're driving along looking for something, a minute can feel like a hell of a long time even though I know it's not, it just feels like a long time - so I think people are starting to ignore the signs.

[Horse]

That almost sounds like common sense.

To what purpose? If you're in an emergency area the your vehicle is already further away from traffic than it would be if stopped on a hard shoulder. Plus there's barriers to wait behind.

Well it's my experiences that as soon as Highways shows up to a stranded vehicle in these bays the Red X's are turned on for the inside lane, if they need them why don't I?

For what purpose? why to allow me to reach a safe speed to re-enter the carriageway of course, then they could turn off automatically when I'm gone.

Well, I obviously don't know what your experiences are. You might be someone who breaks down often, or someone who attends a lot of breakdowns.

And, to be honest, I don't know what Highways England's procedures are, I just have access (as would you if the website was online) to the breakdown industry guidance, which give information on when signals might be used.

And why do you expect them to turn on signals if you CBA to tell them you're there? Can't have it both ways! You told us earlier that you don't need them, you're happy to make the 'go' decision yourself.

[Horse]

To be honest - it sometimes doesn't help that the red Xs (and other warning signs) are often turned on up to a mile prior to the actual 'incident'.

This is something HE have been trying to reduce (I don't think it will ever be eliminated). They can't win. If something is 'there' but they don't know exactly where (this applies nationally, all motorways) then should they not display any signals?

I think they might have introduced new wording, something like including 'reported'.

[Horse]

If "smart" motorways have to rely on people then they are only as "smart" as the idiots driving on the motorway.

So no different to most other roads.

[Cousin Jack]

So no different to most other roads.

Unfortunately they ARE different to most other roads.

On 'normal' roads drivers encounter all sorts of hazards and have to pay attention if they are to reach their destination. On M'ways (and many modern dual carriageways) most junctions, hazards and other stuff that stimulate the brain has been eliminated. Many drivers drive with their brain in neutral.

[MrLongbeard]

Well, I obviously don't know what your experiences are. You might be someone who breaks down often, or someone who attends a lot of breakdowns.

And, to be honest, I don't know what Highways England's procedures are, I just have access (as would you if the website was online) to the breakdown industry guidance, which give information on when signals might be used.

And why do you expect them to turn on signals if you CBA to tell them you're there? Can't have it both ways! You told us earlier that you don't need them, you're happy to make the 'go' decision yourself.

My experiences are someone who spends far too long on 'smart' M-ways, you may recall from threads such as 'autonomous driving' and others that my commute is a 185 mile round trip.
Now the weather is turning I may just avoid them, go the scenic route and hang the extra miles.

I can have it both ways, as they stand right now they / the system sucks, but I'll live with it as I don't have any choice in the matter, and my actions reflect this.
If, as we're discussing the system, it can be improved on, by say making the signs automatic to the presence of a vehicle, then i'll throw my hat in with that idea as an obvious improvement.

[Horse]

On M'ways (and many modern dual carriageways) most junctions, hazards and other stuff that stimulate the brain has been eliminated. Many drivers drive with their brain in neutral.

Now come on. In the AV thread you said:

Once upon a time we couldn't be trusted to drive above 4 mph and with a man with a red flag walking in front.
Some of us now get up to 70 mph without problems.

Might not be exponential, but we are getting better.

So are you suggesting that AVs would be ok for motorways and modern dual carriageways?

[Horse]

If, as we're discussing the system, it can be improved on, by say making the signs automatic to the presence of a vehicle, then i'll throw my hat in with that idea as an obvious improvement.

Big if on whether it is an improvement. From experience of working on various aspects of roadworks and incident management, the thing that people are likely - but not always - to react to is something blocking the road. As I said - and RB emphasised - potentially you're training people to ignore the signals.

If you see roadworks with the twinkly lamps that flash sequentially along the row, they pushed back the point at which most drivers leave the closed lane, about 100m earlier.

[Horse]

Well it's my experiences that as soon as Highways shows up to a stranded vehicle in these bays the Red X's are turned on for the inside lane, if they need them why don't I?

SURVIVE best practice guidance V18 excerpts

When attending a broken down vehicle in an SOS Area, especially an LGV, the Road Recovery Operator should contact Highways England RCC if assisted entry to an SOS Area is required where it is known, or is likely that the RRO will need to slow significantly or stop in a lane adjacent to an SOS Area. A lane closure or a rolling road block maybe required to safely enter the SOS Area in some circumstances. Liaison with Highways England RCC will determine the best approach. Any signals set should remain in place until you have safely left the scene. If Traffic Officers are not present and signals are still set, ensure you notify RCC when you require the lane to be reopened.

2. Or if the hard shoulder is being used as a live running lane and the Technician is reasonably satisfied that they can exit the SOS Area safely without assistance, then the Technician should contact the RCC using the Emergency Telephone located within the SOS Area, and notify the RCC of their intention to leave the SOS Area without assistance. The RCC should be aware of the presence of the Technician and the casualty vehicle in the SOS Area via the CCTV cameras located on the motorway. Where the casualty vehicle has been repaired, the Technician should advise the driver of the casualty vehicle of the recommended procedure for re-joining the carriageways. See Section 4N (Leaving the scene of the breakdown or removal).

3. Or if, however, the hard shoulder is being used as a live running lane and the Technician considers that they require assistance to exit the SOS Area, for example this will normally be required when towing a casualty vehicle or if speed and/or density of passing traffic is high, then the Technician should contact the RCC, using the Emergency Telephone located within the SOS Area, and request assistance.

RCC and HE Traffic Officer Assistance (if present)

If the resources are available, the RCC and the Traffic Officer If the resources are available, the RCC and the Traffic Officer patrol will provide one or more of the following types of assistance to enter or exit an SOS Area:

Entering an SOS Area - Where assistance is required to enter an SOS Area, contact Highways England RCC and provide a telephone number allowing direct contact between HE Traffic Officers and the Technician. Where possible the RCC operator will pass the following details, to the RRO, to assist recovery:

- The position of the vehicle occupying the SOS Area

- Whether there is sufficient space ahead of the vehicle for the RRO to safely enter it without Traffic Officer assistance.

Exiting an SOS Area - On section of smart motorways, the Technician will be asked to wait within the SOS Area until the relevant part of the hard shoulder or lane 1 is closed to traffic or lane divert arrows have been set. Once the RCC has confirmed appropriate signals have been set, the Technician should check that traffic has cleared from the hard shoulder/ lane 1 (and, if the gantry beyond the SOS Area is visible, that a red X or lane divert arrow has appeared on the gantry over the hard shoulder/lane 1) before attempting to leave the SOS Area. This is considered to be the preferred type of assistance should the Technician have any concerns over their ability (or that of the customer) to safely exit the SOS Area.

2. The Traffic Officer patrol, if they attend, can use their vehicle to provide a rolling road block in order to facilitate the Technician’s safe exit from the SOS Area. The RCC will also set the signs and signals to display ‘SLOW VEHICLE LEAVING REFUGE’ on the gantries approaching the SOS Area to advise other drivers that a slow vehicle is leaving the refuge area. If agreed with the RCC that a rolling road block will be provided, the Technician should position their vehicle in readiness to leave the SOS Area and should only exit the SOS Area when they can see both that the Traffic Officer’s vehicle is approaching and that the dynamic hard shoulder/ lane 1 is clear in front of that vehicle, The Technician should pull out a safe distance in front of the Traffic Officer vehicle and proceed onto lane 1 with caution when the TO vehicle’s lights are seen and no vehicles are seen between the SOS Area and TO vehicle.

The Traffic Officer patrol will follow their own established procedures and position their vehicle behind the casualty vehicle with the appropriate warning lights activated and signs deployed to help protect the scene. This means that if a Technician arrives at the scene of an incident which is also being attended by Traffic Officer patrol the Technician should position the road recovery vehicle in front of the casualty vehicle. The Traffic Officer(s) and the Technician should liaise to establish whether the casualty vehicle is to be recovered or repaired in situ and establish what Traffic Officer support is required.

Note: There may be instances when, due to a variety of reasons, an RCC is unable to arrange for the attendance of Traffic Officer patrol at the scene to assist the Technician. In such cases it is recommended that the Road Recovery Operator then contacts the appropriate PCR and ascertain if a Police Officer vehicle is able to attend instead. If this is also not possible, then the Road Recovery Operator should consider sending a second resource to assist the Technician at the roadside and inform the Technician accordingly.

The reverse access option under Highways England control maybe utilised where appropriate.

Note 1: It is recommended that contact with the appropriate PCR or RCC for permission to use the hard shoulder or closed lane (under RED X’s) to access a casualty vehicle is made by the attending Technician. This will ensure that the Road Recovery Operator is made aware that the Technician will be using the hardshoulder or closed lane (under RED X’s) to access the casualty vehicle should permission be granted.

Note 2: Under no circumstances whatsoever may a Technician drive on the hard shoulder or closed lane (under RED X’s) of a motorway (or dual carriageway) without first of all receiving permission to do so from either Highways England or the Police as appropriate.

[Cousin Jack]

So are you suggesting that AVs would be ok for motorways and modern dual carriageways?

It would be fairer to say that, in many instances, the AV will be equally bad as humans on M'ways.

AVs would probably be as good as the average driver, UNTIL the unexpected happens. When that happens they will hand back control to a person who hasn't a clue what is happening. For the manual driver case a good 60-70% will not have a clue what is happening either, because only a tiny portion of their brain is in gear.

[Horse]

So are you suggesting that AVs would be ok for motorways and modern dual carriageways?

It would be fairer to say that, in many instances, the AV will be equally bad as humans on M'ways.

AVs would probably be as good as the average driver, UNTIL the unexpected happens. When that happens they will hand back control to a person who hasn't a clue what is happening.

Apart from saying 'Tesla' (because I don't think they're a good guide for all the others, particularly in the UK), why do you think that 'handing back control, quickly, to the human' is always going to be the default? Perhaps 'braking', or some other evasive manoeuvre, might be implemented? If it needs an immediate response, I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't it do that.

[Yes, I know: Wrong thread]
As I've said before, you're by no means the first person to appreciate that people aren't great at taking control in those situations. That's why there's so much work on stopping the things from getting into grief in the first place. Yes, crashes will still happen.

[McNab]

Thanks for the info Horse.

A few times driving along I've had the bonnet pop (I think my Dad caught the release with his foot (stupid design)) and had to stop to secure it. It's never happened on the motorway, but if it did and I had to stop in a refuge, I wouldn't even think about getting on the emergency phone for such a minor and quick problem. I'd probably be out and back in the car before the monitoring technician even saw me.

This is all good info that's not been communicated to the general public.

Are there signs in the refuges telling people to use the phone before rejoining the carriageway? There should be.

[Horse]

This is all good info that's not been communicated to the general public.

Are there signs in the refuges telling people to use the phone before rejoining the carriageway? There should be.

I don't know whether there are specific information signs.

For rejoining, I don't know whether emergency areas are always located where there is a good sightline back up the carriageway.

If crossing a motorway on foot, you're supposed to allow 3 seconds per lane, clear of traffic. I've tried (from a footbridge) judging that and even 9 seconds is difficult. Even with firm acceleration (from within the area), and assessing from ground level, you still would need a fair amount of time, so looking for traffic 350-400 m away.

[The Spin Doctor]

Simply, you shouldn't be trying to leave it unaided.

This is not aimed at you but that's a perfectly ridiculous assumption.

There are any number of reasons a driver might need to stop for a few seconds then be ready to drive on.

Just two examples - just the other day I had to stop and clean the visor after a huge birdshit splattered the visor, and a week or two before that I had to stop to find out what was causing a weird noise at the back of the car - it was a branch that had flicked up and stuck in the rear wheel arch.

Fortunately neither were on a motorway but in both cases I pulled up in a farm access.

Something that occurred to me y'day is that there's nowhere for service personnel to operate from either. I passed someone working on an overhead gantry y'daay... van parked on the hard shoulder .

It is also appearing that the fatal accident count has been fudged and is actually double what was claimed, thanks to a bit of sleight of hand on the count.