Airbags expanding

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Hot_Air
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Re: Airbags expanding

Post by Hot_Air »

It may not be meaningful to regular riders – because you have to be clued-up on odds ratios and comfortable with kilonewtons – but the evidence is clear. And why else would MotoCAP bother with impact testing or Ron Woods have proposed Level 3 armour?

Having read the publications in detail, and with a background to understand this science, I was convinced enough to spend my own money :o A rare event. I’ve retrofitted my leathers with armour with the lowest ‘maximum transmitted force’ that fits them.
Albanese et el. wrote: Comparing the energy attenuation performance of the impact protectors (IP) worn by these riders and the real-world injury outcomes revealed a significant association between maximum force transmitted and the odds of injury. As the maximum force transmitted increased, the odds of injury increased. […] However, our findings suggest the energy attenuation requirements of the European Standard may be set too low to effectively reduce the probability of injury.
However, I’d add some questions where we need more research:
  • Liz de Rome et al found no association between fracture risk and armour. But “armour” included non-CE stuff, CE armour older than its 5-year shelf life, CE1 and CE2 protectors. And we can speculate why “armour” didn’t reduce fracture risk. Inescapably, some crashes are beyond what any armour could protect. Also, older or non-CE armour mightn’t be ineffective. Elbow and knee protectors could rotate out of place. And only 1% of riders in de Rome’s study may have been wearing CE2 protectors: Albanese found that, of Australian riders wearing CE-armour, 99% of their protectors were CE1. Not to mention the finding that the “European Standard may be set too low to effectively reduce the probability of injury.”
  • Compared with soft armour that’s all the rage, there’s evidence that a hard plastic outer shell is associated with reduced impact injury. The sample size is too small for statistical significance: more research required! But I’m interested that Alpinestars’ best textile jackets (e.g. the Revenant) use this construction, with a plastic shell on top of CE2 shoulder armour. And it’s not for marketing or style; the plastic hides under the outer Armacor® layer. It’s a secret extra.
Albanese et el. wrote: “Impact protector construction might be the most important characteristic, or at least as important as energy attenuation, for impact injury protection.”
And Otte et al (2001) found differences in the protective effect associated with the construction of the impact protector.
Horse wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:10 pm [And another indictment of manufacturers having their customers survival at the heart of what they do .... ]
I agree. Also, on top of Italian brands successfully lobbying :thumbdown: against Level 3 armour, 17% of CE-marked armour failed to meet the CE1 standard :thumbdown: when tested independently by Albanese et al. MotoCAP test results concur (e.g. some CE-marked Dainese protectors let through more force than permitted by the CE standard). It underlines the problem of having a CE standard that nobody polices: it's like the Wild West without a sheriff.
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Re: Airbags expanding

Post by Horse »

But “armour” included non-CE stuff, CE armour older than its 5-year shelf life, CE1 and CE2 protectors.

Along the lines of the much-referenced 'benefits of hi-viz' paper which included IIRC just small patches of material.


However, you'll need to find the correct session and then the download link.
https://www.ifz.de/imc-2020-sessions/
What safety benefits can airbags bring?

And their answer is "50kph, no appreciable mitigation of injury severity can be expected". You'll need to read it (PPT) for context.
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Re: Airbags expanding

Post by Hot_Air »

Horse wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 11:46 am And their answer is "50kph, no appreciable mitigation of injury severity can be expected". You'll need to read it (PPT) for context.
Thanks Horse, and I'm happy to change my opinion as new evidence emerges. Such is science! (Though I haven't figured out how to find the PPT; such is my IT skill :lol: )

It's an interesting programme, and I see MIPS is presenting too. I wonder when we'll see the first helmets certified to ECE 22.06 on the market? Rotational impact-protection seems like The Next Big Thing for next season's fashionable headgear.
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Re: Airbags expanding

Post by Horse »

Go to Sessions, scroll to the particular one, should be a set of download options


Re rotational forces, Leatt have incorporated this to motorcycle and cycle helmets. Possibly others.

https://www.leatt.com/latest-news/vital ... reloaded=1

https://www.bikeradar.com/news/leatt-br ... %20helmets.

2016:

https://www.motorcycle.com/safety/helme ... tml/%3famp
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Re: Airbags expanding

Post by Hot_Air »

Horse wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:02 pm Re rotational forces, Leatt have incorporated this to motorcycle and cycle helmets. Possibly others.
Bell is ahead of the rotational curve, with three lids for regular road riding (and track) that have MIPS. Also, Shoei has what it calls a Motion Energy Distribution System, but it's only in a dirt biking lid for now. I guess we'll see more helmets with MIPS-or-equivalent as we say bonjour to ECE 22.06. But when are the old 22.05 rules are pensioned off?
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Re: Airbags expanding

Post by The Spin Doctor »

Hot_Air wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:41 am It may not be meaningful to regular riders – because you have to be clued-up on odds ratios and comfortable with kilonewtons
It's not just 'regular' riders - don't forget I have a science background too, so I'm comfortable with the terminology. What I don't have - and to be honest, few experts with a background in physical trauma will have either - is an understanding of what a kN actually means in terms of impact injury. The number of doctors who apparently tell motorcycle crash victims that their leathers saved them from worse IMPACT injury attests to that!

– but the evidence is clear. And why else would MotoCAP bother with impact testing or Ron Woods have proposed Level 3 armour?
Having worked with Chris Hurren and discussed his work extensively with him, the reasons are:

one - my argument that the difference between 15 and 50 kN is meaningless unless it's given some frame of reference in terms of what that means as a typical impact and the consequential injury (as I've now repeated three time)

two - your last point...
Also, on top of Italian brands successfully lobbying :thumbdown: against Level 3 armour, 17% of CE-marked armour failed to meet the CE1 standard :thumbdown: when tested independently by Albanese et al. MotoCAP test results concur (e.g. some CE-marked Dainese protectors let through more force than permitted by the CE standard). It underlines the problem of having a CE standard that nobody polices: it's like the Wild West without a sheriff.
He's creating a framework that ANYONE can understand - just so long as you can cope with "one star not very good, five stars much better" as a concept - and where poor performance will shame manufacturers into revamping their designs. He says that one well-known manufacturer of highly rated armoured denims have withdrawn one of their models since the newer production runs failed to match the original batch's test standard.
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Re: Airbags expanding

Post by Hot_Air »

Finally, it appears we’ve got more testing of airbags :banana-dance: to see if they’re more than hot air*
http://pioneers-project.eu/everything-i ... g-jackets/

* Although there’s a lot to be said for Hot Air :D
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Re: Airbags expanding

Post by Horse »

I can't recall which thread the issue of hip / pelvic injuries was covered, where IIRC I mentioned that the bike's tank is often the culprit, so airbags on the outside of hips might not be particularly beneficial.

This was in the 'Marginal Gains' thread:


Ever considered bike choice as an influence on crash / injury outcomes?

Motorcycle fuel tanks and pelvic fractures: A motorcycle fuel tank syndrome


ABSTRACT
Objective: Pelvic injuries are a serious and commonly occurring injury to motorcycle riders involved in crashes, yet there has been limited research investigating the mechanisms involved in these injuries. This study aimed to investigate the mechanisms involved in pelvic injuries to crashed motorcyclists.

Method: This study involved in-depth crash investigation and 2 convenience-based data sets were used. These data sets investigated motorcycle crashes in the Sydney, Newcastle, and Adelaide regions. Participants included motorcycle riders who had crashed either on a public road or private property within the study areas. The mechanism of injury and the type of injuries were investigated.

Results: The most frequent cause of pelvic injuries in crashed motorcyclists was due to contact with the motorcycle fuel tank during the crash (85%). For riders who had come into contact with the fuel tank, the injury types were able to be grouped into 3 categories based on the complexity of the injury. The complexity of the injury appeared to increase with impact speed but this was a nonsignificant trend. The pelvic injuries that did not occur from contact with the fuel tank in this sample differed in asymmetry of loading and did not commonly involve injury to the bladder. They were commonly one-sided injuries but this differed based on the point of loading; however, a larger sample of these injuries needs to be investigated.

Conclusion: Overall improvements in road safety have not been replicated in the amelioration of pelvic injuries in motorcyclists and improvements in the design of crashworthy motorcycle fuel tanks appear to be required.
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Re: Airbags expanding

Post by Mr. Dazzle »

Is there any regulation of tank shape? That would seem more effective than airbags, similar to how the external shape of cars is heavily regulated to mitigate pedestrian impacts.

I would guess not on MCs, but it would seem sensible.
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Re: Airbags expanding

Post by Horse »

Don't know of any design constraints. But yet another argument in favour of standing or jumping.
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Re: Airbags expanding

Post by Horse »

Oh, and I was told / read that BMW RT fairings were shaped to 'lift' (my wording) the rider 'up'.
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Re: Airbags expanding

Post by Hot_Air »

It seems the Spanish government set up a working group to determine if airbags should be mandatory for bikers. Working Group 52 concluded ‘no’.

Instead of airbags, Spain is making protective gloves mandatory for motorcyclists. So, a government working group investigating airbags came to a conclusion about gloves. You have to hand it to them :)
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Re: Airbags expanding

Post by Hot_Air »

Before I submit my Dakar application, do you know if I can buy one of these with IAM branding? :mrgreen:

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Re: Airbags expanding

Post by Horse »

Hot_Air wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:08 pm Before I submit my Dakar application, do you know if I can buy one of these with IAM branding? :mrgreen:

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:D Available for all adventure style bikes from 10/04/2021

Google (via 'lens') never fails.

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Infinity’s Tech-Air 5 price

Post by Hot_Air »

Have you seen how much airbag prices have deflated?

One upon a time, Alpinestars’ Tech-Air would set you back a grand. Infinity is currently selling the Tech-Air 5 for around half that price. Sure, £500 is still a monkey. But it shows that airbag prices have shrunk significantly. Airbag sales have got to be inflating, haven’t they?

Albeit £500 would buy a good chunk of advanced training (e.g. with Rapid Training or @The Spin Doctor). And skills are a better investment.
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Re: Airbags expanding

Post by demographic »

Mr. Dazzle wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:59 am Is there any regulation of tank shape? That would seem more effective than airbags, similar to how the external shape of cars is heavily regulated to mitigate pedestrian impacts.
I seriously doubt they regulate tank shapes, because... well...KTMs.
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Re: Airbags expanding

Post by Horse »

demographic wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:30 pm
Mr. Dazzle wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:59 am Is there any regulation of tank shape? That would seem more effective than airbags, similar to how the external shape of cars is heavily regulated to mitigate pedestrian impacts.
I seriously doubt they regulate tank shapes, because... well...KTMs.
No, it's more a case that if you slide hard into the tank, it will regulate your shape. Specifically your nadgers then, potentially, 'open book' pelvis.
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Re: Airbags expanding

Post by The Spin Doctor »

Mr. Dazzle wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:59 am Is there any regulation of tank shape? That would seem more effective than airbags, similar to how the external shape of cars is heavily regulated to mitigate pedestrian impacts.

I would guess not on MCs, but it would seem sensible.
You'd also need collapsing handlebars to prevent fractured thighs. AFAIK only one BMW has them. Horse will probably now tell me I'm not keeping up.
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Re: Airbags expanding

Post by Horse »

The Spin Doctor wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:02 pm
AFAIK only one BMW has them. Horse will probably now tell me I'm not keeping up.
Nope, I don't know of any.

Certainly the bars on my old R850 wouldn't give, they're a pair of individual cast alloy sections each with four bolts each holding them to the top yolk.

Nearest I can think of is that the inside panels on RT fairings being designed to eject the rider upwards. But I don't think that I've seen it published anywhere.

Barry Sheene's big Silverstone crash showed what happens when shins meet bars.
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