Would you have an electric car if you had the money for a new car and were in the market for one?

[Mr. Dazzle]

Not long ago Mrs D and I were driving along in my car shortly after I'd changed the brake pads.

"How do you know the wheels are done up?" she asks.

After about 15 mins of conversation about quality assurance, redundancy, p diagrams, FMEAs and the like we came to the conclusion "I don't, but they probably are". The fact we were still driving along after that period was pretty good evidence in the "done up" column TBF

But it is a serious point. How do you know the wheels are done up? Just saying "they are" is a cop out.

Now times that by the 10,000 things in a car and you see why Tesla have issues with trying to go from 0 to a million cars.

[Horse]

But it is a serious point. How do you know the wheels are done up? Just saying "they are" is a cop out.

Now times that by the 10,000 things in a car and you see why Tesla have issues with trying to go from 0 to a million cars.

In the safety world, there's a 'thing' which goes 'work as imagined Vs work as done' (and a more complicated 4 way version).

WAI says it'll always have a nyloc nut on that bolt. WAD is that, sometimes, it won't.

Somewhere, somehow, something is 'broken' if that doesn't always happen, even if only a few parts per million failure rate.

But when an issue becomes "widespread", then you do have to wonder whether there are shortcuts and deliberate ignoring etc. (And not just Tesla, Zafira fires etc too).

[demographic]

Not long ago Mrs D and I were driving along in my car shortly after I'd changed the brake pads.

"How do you know the wheels are done up?" she asks.

After about 15 mins of conversation about quality assurance, redundancy, p diagrams, FMEAs and the like we came to the conclusion "I don't, but they probably are". The fact we were still driving along after that period was pretty good evidence in the "done up" column TBF

But it is a serious point. How do you know the wheels are done up? Just saying "they are" is a cop out.

Now times that by the 10,000 things in a car and you see why Tesla have issues with trying to go from 0 to a million cars.

I know this doesn't totally prove the lugnuts are done up but the system used on trucks/dumpers diggers is a good one.
They have plastic tabs that go on the lugnuts when they have been torqued up.
This means the driver can do a quick walk round visual check and at a glance see they've not moved.
Can't see that selling on poncy cars but the look wouldn't bother me in the slightest with my van.



IIRC if the wheel has an even number of lugnuts they're paired to point towards the other one of the pair and if its an odd number they all point in the same direction of either clockwise or anticlockwise.
That way is doesn't look like one's spun round and is 180 from where it should be when odd numbered lugnut wheels are done up.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Its more an abstract Q about all the things you need to do to build a car (or anything really); How do you know they're done.

On the arrow things for example, how do you know the person who put them on did it correctly? There's nothing forcing you to tighten the wheels properly before putting them on.

You could do the wheels finger tight and then put them on, it would still pass that test then while being unsafe.

[demographic]

Its more an abstract Q about all the things you need to do to build a car (or anything really); How do you know they're done.

On the arrow things for example, how do you know the person who put them on did it correctly? There's nothing forcing you to tighten the wheels properly before putting them on.

You could do the wheels finger tight and then put them on, it would still pass that test then while being unsafe.

Yup, indeed. Thats where the "I know this doesn't totally prove the lugnuts are done up" bit comes in.
Nothing is 100% but these do help with a lot vehicle safety checks if theyve been fitted after torquing the wheel up and even if theyve been put onto nuts that are handtight as soon as they move its easy to spot from a distance.
Not all wheels fall off the first time the vehicle is driven and even if one lugnut is forgotten on the tightening sequence it doesn't mean they're all hand tight.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Indeed.

There are no hard and fast rule about any of this. Theres no "big book of how to build stuff" that will tell you that (for example) wheels need to bolted with this method and checked what that method and so on.

There are of course a whole lot of principal and methods, codified in the various standards automotive firms work to. But none of them are explicit instructions on building stuff, they just define "the systems" you need to work to.

Firms like Toyota will know that if they use processes X, Y and Z they'll get a good product. A lot of it is "house style" and long established methods, which of course Tesla don't have. That's where they're falling over IMO.

[slowsider]

Its more an abstract Q about all the things you need to do to build a car (or anything really); How do you know they're done.

Training, QA, QC, line worker authority (as per e.g.Toyota)... why Tesla can't learn from others is odd.

[Mr. Dazzle]

That is all a lot of (not really that glamorous) work which also doesn't directly contribute to making cars, which is probably part of the issue.

I've worked with and for quite a few firms who are starting something new, almost without fail they underestimate the time and money required to set it all up IME.

It can be equally frustrating the other way too though, it can sometimes feel like wading through treacle dealing with firms like Toyota. But their quality reputation speaks for itself.

[niggle]

I know this doesn't totally prove the lugnuts are done up but the system used on trucks/dumpers diggers is a good one.
They have plastic tabs that go on the lugnuts when they have been torqued up.
This means the driver can do a quick walk round visual check and at a glance see they've not moved.
Can't see that selling on poncy cars but the look wouldn't bother me in the slightest with my van.



IIRC if the wheel has an even number of lugnuts they're paired to point towards the other one of the pair and if its an odd number they all point in the same direction of either clockwise or anticlockwise.
That way is doesn't look like one's spun round and is 180 from where it should be when odd numbered lugnut wheels are done up.

Yes I wondered what those were for a little while then the penny dropped.

When I worked in a care home for a bit I was made responsible for checking the vehicles (2 x Berlingo multispace things) and one job on the weekly checklist was to check the road wheel bolts. It was a nuisance pulling all the plastic wheel trims off and checking each bolt with the wheel brace (I decided if they were not loose they were OK) but as I was signing off on it I did it religiously.

[niggle]

On the mainstream manufacturers theme, Hyundai/Kia got in earlier than most with several decent range models actually available to buy well ahead of the competition. Our Kia eNiro is a superb drive, very well equipped with excellent fit and finish IMO, all for a lot less than any Tesla. Real range is about 220 miles right now, and up to 275 in warm weather, both with climate on and sensible motorway speeds.

[Rockburner]

Its more an abstract Q about all the things you need to do to build a car (or anything really); How do you know they're done.

Training, QA, QC, line worker authority (as per e.g.Toyota)... why Tesla can't learn from others is odd.

They are learning, but learning takes time, it's not an instantaneous process.

[Couchy]

With Tesla you also have the American build quality which on most things they build isn’t on a par with other countries, when I worked on locos American built ones weren’t built as nice, they worked fine but so long as something works that was all they cared about. Fit and finish were secondary. Also recently worked in a Tesla PDI centre, it was a German competitors centre and cars off the boat went straight in to have fit and finish problems sorted. The majority needed paint as a bare minimum. Still it’s good as they have pushed EV along nicely

[demographic]

On the mainstream manufacturers theme, Hyundai/Kia got in earlier than most with several decent range models actually available to buy well ahead of the competition. Our Kia eNiro is a superb drive, very well equipped with excellent fit and finish IMO, all for a lot less than any Tesla. Real range is about 220 miles right now, and up to 275 in warm weather, both with climate on and sensible motorway speeds.

From what Ive seen the lecky Kia Niro gets good reviews and as its from a company that knows cars is well built.
Tesla makes a lot of money because other manufacturers pay them for carbon credits (or something like that anyway) which offsets their own cars emissions. That wont last.

[Horse]

Its more an abstract Q about all the things you need to do to build a car (or anything really); How do you know they're done.

Training, QA, QC, line worker authority (as per e.g.Toyota)... why Tesla can't learn from others is odd.

They are learning, but learning takes time, it's not an instantaneous process.

Often, change has to cascade from the top. If there is no management will (let alone supporr), it won't happen.

[demographic]

Without a doubt Tesla have pushed other manufacturers to produce electric cars but I can't say I want one.
Some parts they make? Hell yes. The full cars? Not so much.

[Mr. Dazzle]

By shear coincidence this vid just popped up on my recommended YouTube stuff. If you have a Tesla I probably wouldn't worry too much about the motor itself, it appears to be built like a brick shithouse.

TBF if I were starting an electric car company with the intent of making cars 'mainstream' I'd make the motors chunky too. You want everything EXCEPT the electric drive aspect to break, if anything is gonna break at all that is.

[Horse]

Without a doubt Tesla have pushed other manufacturers to produce electric cars but I can't say I want one.
Some parts they make? Hell yes. The full cars? Not so much.

There's a part of [most] cars that always impresses me with a combination of reliability with extremely compact engineering. And that's the switch stalks on the steering column.

But, of course, Tesla have gone with many controls that might normally be physical switches and, instead, integrated them into the display.

There are major safety concerns about this, at least one manufacturer has stated they will not do this. But if you view it as part of the plan (rightly or wrongly, misguided and unachievable or not) then it might make sense. Perhaps.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Touchscreens are lighter, cheaper and quciker/easier to develop than a whole dashboard of buttons, I imagine that's got something to do with it.

The big players are doing a lot more of it now, but they still retain buttons and have more sophisticated haptics. The new Jaguar stuff is pretty good.

[Mussels]

I have touch screen controls in my car, it is an early one so they will have improved but I hate having to take my eyes off the road to change ventilation settings. In theory the fully automated HVAC system should do everything for me but I've never used one I like, the manual slide selectors in my mk1 Fiesta were better. As far as the stereo goes i can do little more than change the volume on the move, it's pretty shit.

[Kneerly Down]

I'm finding myself using 'hey google' a lot now that I'm driving Skye to London and back most weeks.
I like that it integrates with Waze now, so I don't have to touch any buttons to do reports or set directions/diversions.