Would you have an electric car if you had the money for a new car and were in the market for one?

[Horse]

The 5000+ wind turbines here operate in the cold... well, the 66% that actually work. The others are all broken & there's no taxpayers subsidy to remove them, just to install new ones so we have countless "standing scrap".

Jeez that sound so irresponsible that I wouldn't want whoever regulates it to be in charge of any nuclear power stations...

To be fair, if a derelict windmill falls over through lack of maintenance, no big deal. Fail to maintain a nuclear installation and it 'falls over'? Different story. Probably.

[Horse]

Hydrogen for swifter refuelling?

https://www.energylivenews.com/2021/02/ ... n-the-way/

A new hydrogen-powered ambulance will hit London’s streets this autumn.

The project, named ZERRO for Zero Emission Rapid Response Operations ambulance, is funded by the Office for Zero Emission Vehicles and aims to deliver a prototype zero-emission ambulance for the London Ambulance Service NHS Trust (LAS).

The supplier of retrofitted hydrogen hybrid combustion technology ULEMCo is leading the project, the prototype of which features a hydrogen fuel cell range extender with an electric drive, low frame chassis and lightweight ambulance body.

Promech Technologies has provided the new vehicle with its battery technology solution.

The project, which is currently in the build phase, is expected to be tested in London later this year.

[Mr. Dazzle]

As I've said a few times, hybrid fuel cell/batteries make a lot of sense. For two (perhaps even three) big reasons.

- You can't run a hydrogen cell backwards and make fuel, so they're no good for regen braking. Something like a heavy ambulance doing a lot of urban stop/start can get big efficiency improvements through regen.
- Like piston engines, hydrogen cells work more efficiently at a certain power 'base load' so you want a smallish cell constantly chucking out close to its most efficient power and then battery to take off the peaks and fill in the valleys of actual real world driving.
- You can charge a battery from the grid when you're stationary, which allows you to use any form of electricity (i.e. wind, nuclear, coal, whatever) and not just hydrogen.

[Wreckless Rat]

As I've said a few times, hybrid fuel cell/batteries make a lot of sense. For two (perhaps even three) big reasons.

- You can't run a hydrogen cell backwards and make fuel, so they're no good for regen braking. Something like a heavy ambulance doing a lot of urban stop/start can get big efficiency improvements through regen.
- Like piston engines, hydrogen cells work more efficiently at a certain power 'base load' so you want a smallish cell constantly chucking out close to its most efficient power and then battery to take off the peaks and fill in the valleys of actual real world driving.
- You can charge a battery from the grid when you're stationary, which allows you to use any form of electricity (i.e. wind, nuclear, coal, whatever) and not just hydrogen.

But they don't suit a lot of peoples lives. Hydrogen is a very close replacement for fossil fuels. Fill up... drive, get home, park. No plugging in etc etc etc

Hybrid cars are a fudge that solves neither issue very well.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Don't agree. Youd still fill it up, the battery would be invisible. The advantages to having to a battery / super capacitor - even if its just a small one - are pretty compelling.

The big difference compared to an ICE hybrid is that the battery and fuel cell both provide the same sort of 'fuel', so the additional complexity is much lower.

[Wreckless Rat]

Don't agree. Youd still fill it up, the battery would be invisible. The advantages to having to a battery / super capacitor - even if its just a small one - are pretty compelling.

The big difference compared to an ICE hybrid is that the battery and fuel cell both provide the same sort of fuel, so the additional complexity is much lower.

Still using fossil fuels.... using a bit less, but still using petrol or diesel as the main mode of power, so it doesn't even solve point 1 of what it is meant to do.

[Mr. Dazzle]

You mean hydrogen or 'normal' hybrids? Hydrogen currently comes from fossil fuels yeah.

The other thing to bear in mind is that the "don't have to plug it in" mentally is a bit weird. Surely its more convenient to have a car that you can fill up at home while you sleep?

Edit: Think we may be talking about different things. I mean a hybrid vehicle which has a fuel cell and batteries, but not a piston engine. So still a 100% EV but with two fuel tanks.

[Wreckless Rat]

You mean hydrogen or 'normal' hybrids? Hydrogen currently comes from fossil fuels yeah.

The other thing to bear in mind is that the "don't have to plug it in" mentally is a bit weird. Surely its more convenient to have a car that you can fill up at home while you sleep?

No, I'm talking generally accepted "fossil fuels" petrol or diesel. And no, the "filling up when you sleep" thing, simply doesnt work for many unless they live in town and only ever do short journeys. Even many of those who live in towns, it won't work for. Ever seen the average town road, lined with cars both sides. Where do you suggest these people all "plug in to". Lovely for those who live in leafy suburbs, with private drives etc. That's not reality for millions of folks.

So the average hybrid car, currently runs a few miles on leccy alone, or it can be used to bump the MPG up to 100+ - that's still fossil fuels being burnt.

Hydrogen is a far better fit for most people. No long charging stops needed as with pure leccy cars, and not using fossil fuels like hybrids do.

edit: I think we are. Im talking the av. hyrbid Petrol EV things.

[Mr. Dazzle]

See my edit.

[Wreckless Rat]

See my edit.

I think I misconstrued your "hybrid"

Hydrogen/Hybrid is "the" solution imho. PEV is a fudge aimed at moving people towards a different system, without solving the issue, its more about changing mindsets.IMHO

[Mr. Dazzle]

Personally I think BEVs will be the dominant vehicle type, expecially as fundamentally different battery types come on the market over the next few years.

Hydrogen involves multiple energy changes and the need to physically move "stuff" which will always impact efficiency/increase cost. Plus the current issue of only being able to make it from fossil fuels. Nuclear fusion cracked water is the key!

But we shall see. The great beauty of EVs is that they aren't fussy about where their electricity comes from

[Kneerly Down]

As I've said a few times, hybrid fuel cell/batteries make a lot of sense. For two (perhaps even three) big reasons.

- You can't run a hydrogen cell backwards and make fuel, so they're no good for regen braking. Something like a heavy ambulance doing a lot of urban stop/start can get big efficiency improvements through regen.

Don't know for sure but I'd be surprised if the ambulance doesn't have regen braking. Certainly the recent Hyundai NEXO has a fairly small LiPo battery that allows regen braking and will smooth the generation of power from the fuel cell.

[Mr. Dazzle]

The Honda fuel cell cars do too. You can also use supercapacitors for the same thing.

We also used to make teeny tiny flywheels for it based on the same ideas as I mentioned before. They're a bit pricey though.

[Wreckless Rat]

Personally I think BEVs will be the dominant vehicle type, expecially as fundamentally different battery types come on the market over the next few years.

Hydrogen involves multiple energy changes and the need to physically move "stuff" which will always impact efficiency/increase cost. Plus the current issue of only being able to make it from fossil fuels. Nuclear fusion cracked water is the key!

But we shall see. The great beauty of EVs is that they aren't fussy about where their electricity comes from

You can't only make it from fossil fuels. You can use wind turbines, to crack water. It's expensive now, twice the price of traditional, but predicted to drp 70% within 10yrs....

It's going to be hard to find fuel as cheap as fossil fuel, which is already made and you just pump it from the ground. That will be something people get used to.

[Mr. Dazzle]

The cost if wind electricity in this country is already pretty low...might even be falling below fossil fuels soon? An electric car uses about a third as much electricity as a petrol car does petrol for the same journey IYSWIM. Its 3 times more efficient basically. And that's before you factor in the saving due to the fact electricity is much easier to move.

So if you can make electricity via wind for the same cost as you can via gas, but you need 3 times less of it...you can see where that maths is going.

Yes its not always windy, before someone says it

[Kneerly Down]

£70k for a Hyundai though!!!
You'd have to be very keen on Hydrogen for that.

[Wreckless Rat]

The cost if wind electricity in this country is already pretty low...might even be falling below fossil fuels soon? An electric car uses about a third as much electricity as a petrol car does petrol for the same journey IYSWIM. Its 3 times more efficient basically.

So if you can make electricity via wind for the same cost as you can via gas, but you need 3 times less of it...you can see where that maths is going.

Yes its not always windy, before someone says it

But that doesnt solve the charging issues. They will never go away for millions of folks. Many folks park on the street, huge numbers in fact. Look at most modern build estates even. Most have at least two cars and one parking space.

Cars have to be able to be filled up, quickly, and easily. Charging isn't. You need to be able to put more fuel in, in minutes. Not hours.

[Mr. Dazzle]

On the one hand I would say "no...you don't". Cars are stationary for >95% of their lives, so clearly it's not lack of time which is the problem.

On the other I would also say new battery tech is going to reduce charging time massively.

You're not gonna have a choice reasonably soon, so you'll find a way

[Wreckless Rat]

On the one hand I would say "no...you don't". Cars are stationary for >95% of their lives, so clearly it's not lack of time which is the problem.

On the other I would also say new battery tech is going to reduce charging time massively.

You're not gonna have a choice reasonably soon, so you'll find a way

No, for uptake to work, it has to work for people. Just saying "you will have to" won't wash. It will be a long time before they get rid of Shell etc. So people may well limp on with older cars.

The old cars are stationary 95% of the time is irrelevant when you need to stop for 4hrs to charge up to get home. Batteries come with their own issues, which will be prevalent more and more as they become more widespread. Whilst I have no issue with changing fuel type, it has to be workable. Fully EV cars, I doubt ever will be for many folks, hybrids will work, but only solve the problem when you remove the main source of energy away from oil.

I think it's Germany who have done the most with hydrogen cell cars and filling stations. I think this will be the direction of travel when the issues with pure EV cars becomes more relevant to a larger chunk of the population. Right now, its the affluent middle classes who are moving to EV.

[Rockburner]

Personally I think BEVs will be the dominant vehicle type, expecially as fundamentally different battery types come on the market over the next few years.

Hydrogen involves multiple energy changes and the need to physically move "stuff" which will always impact efficiency/increase cost. Plus the current issue of only being able to make it from fossil fuels. Nuclear fusion cracked water is the key!

But we shall see. The great beauty of EVs is that they aren't fussy about where their electricity comes from

You can't only make it from fossil fuels. You can use wind turbines, to crack water. It's expensive now, twice the price of traditional, but predicted to drp 70% within 10yrs....

It's going to be hard to find fuel as cheap as fossil fuel, which is already made and you just pump it from the ground. That will be something people get used to.

You can pump RON98 fuel straight out of the ground?? Where?