Astrazeneca/Oxford vaccine approved

[Wreckless Rat]

Yeah, that's exactly what I said.

Umm...not really no.

[weeksy]

This is boring now - very little that is genuinely informative.

I thought arsey politics wasn't happening on here? - or is it ok as it's 90% the righty drones?

Fuck sake. I allow certain discussions and i'm pulled up on it, i don't allow them and i'm pulled up on it.

Can't win here.

This forum is what YOU ALL make it.. I'm posting 99% of my posts either in motorbike stuff or stuff to make you all behave.

Only asking. It's your place. I agree you can't win.

I only mention it because I've been pulled up on it officially twice a few months back, so i largely stopped contributing to anything that looked like it could be divisive. The last half dozen pages have been the typical 'boo hoo the EU hates us' nonsense, eff all to do with vaccine approval.

Well strictly speaking you were pulled up for calling someone a twat, not for having a political opinion

Pffft. Come up with your own list you lazy twat.

[Hoonercat]

It's a bit shit really. In an ideal world, there would have been more cooperation and cummunication between govts and vax producers via a central, independent body (eg WHO or similar). Something along the lines of 'You can all order as many zillion vaccines as you want, but the priority will be the most vulnerable and delivery doses to individual countrys/groups of countries will reflect that'. Instead it's just a mad 'me, me, me' scramble.

[slowsider]

It's a bit shit really. In an ideal world, there would have been more cooperation and cummunication between govts and vax producers via a central, independent body (eg WHO or similar). Something along the lines of 'You can all order as many zillion vaccines as you want, but the priority will be the most vulnerable and delivery doses to individual countrys/groups of countries will reflect that'. Instead it's just a mad 'me, me, me' scramble.

You mean, like COVAX?
https://www.who.int/initiatives/act-accelerator/covax

[Mussels]

It's a bit shit really. In an ideal world, there would have been more cooperation and cummunication between govts and vax producers via a central, independent body (eg WHO or similar). Something along the lines of 'You can all order as many zillion vaccines as you want, but the priority will be the most vulnerable and delivery doses to individual countrys/groups of countries will reflect that'. Instead it's just a mad 'me, me, me' scramble.

Something like that would have been good but it only takes one country (or block) to ruin the whole thing, afaik China and Russia have refused to cooperate with anyone else.

[DEADPOOL]

Ooh I don't know, there is some good info in this discussion.

EU screwed the suppliers on price and got shafted on delivery.
Boris bet the farm on the vaccine not actually killing people.
The EU position might not be THAT bad if they can fix local production issues.
UK are sitting pretty if Boris can leverage our local production of vaccines to stop EU border control nicking cheese and ham sandwiches.

It's all pretty interesting and if a few people get a bit het up that's just how people are.

[DefTrap]

Something like that would have been good but it only takes one country (or block) to ruin the whole thing, afaik China and Russia have refused to cooperate with anyone else.

What sort of cooperation are we talking about? because I'm sure i read the Russian SputnikV vaccine had been made available to Egypt, for example.

[irie]

These are the relevant sections from the EU/AstraZeneca purchase Agreement published today.

WHEREAS, as part of that scale-up, AstraZeneca has committed to use its Best Reasonable Efforts (as defined below) to build capacity to manufacture 300 million Doses of the Vaccine, at no profit and no loss to AstraZeneca, at the total cost currently estimated to be Euros for distribution within the EU (the “Initial Europe Doses”), with an option for the Commission, acting on behalf of the Participating Member States, to order an additional 100 million Doses (the “Optional Doses”).

--------

1.9.
“AstraZeneca” has the meaning given in the preamble. “AZ Exchange Rate” has the meaning given in Section 1.15. “Best Reasonable Efforts” means
(a) in the case of AstraZeneca, the activities and degree of effort that a company of similar size with a similarly-sized infrastructure and similar resources as AstraZeneca would undertake or use in the development and manufacture of a Vaccine at the relevant stage of development or commercialization having regard to the urgent need for a Vaccine to end a global pandemic which is resulting in serious public health issues, restrictions on personal freedoms and economic impact, across the world but taking into account efficacy and safety; and
(b) in the case of the Commission and the Participating Member States, the activities and degree of effort that governments would undertake or use in supporting their contractor in the development of the Vaccine having regard to the urgent need for a Vaccine to end a global pandemic which is resulting in serious public health issues, restrictions on personal freedoms and economic impact, across the world.

--------

5.4
Manufacturing sites.  AstraZeneca shall use it's Best Reasonable Efforts to manufacture the Vaccine at manufacturing sites located within the EU (which, for the purpose of this section 5.4 only shall include the United Kingdom) and may manufacture the Vaccine in non-EU facilities, if appropriate, to accelerate supply of the Vaccine in Europe; provided, that AstraZeneca shall provide prior written notice of such non-EU manufacturing facilities to the Commission which shall include an explanation for such determination to use non-EU manufacturing facilities. If AstraZeneca is unable to deliver on its intention to manufacture the Initial Europe Doses and/or Optional Doses under this Agreement in the EU, the Commission or the Participating Member States may present to AstraZeneca, CMOs within the EU capable of manufacturing the Vaccine Doses, and AstraZeneca shall use its Best Reasonable Efforts to contract with such proposed CMOs to increase the available manufacturing capacity within the EU. The manufacturing site planning is set out in Schedule A.

Edit: My guess is that this is the bit that the EU will try to rely on, but I think it's loser because of the "Best Reasonable Efforts" qualifier.

[Docca]

It might just be that the liberal socialist thinkers are wrong and can't yet admit to themselves

Yay! High-five points score

If you look at the VD Facebook membership- there are a lot on there that used to post ...who aren’t registered here , whose views wouldn’t chime with what’s left posting here.

That observation it itself should set the alarm bells jangling. Why is it do you think that the formerly robust conversations we all used to have on VD never appear on FaceBook?

Answer: big tech have entire teams of censors monitoring discussions. Freedom of expression has come to mean freedom to be excoriated, cancelled, sacked and potentially prosecuted for thought crime.

I’m not sure you’ve got my point, again.

I’ll try another way:

- a lot of the more robust thinkers that used to loved to debate have surfaced in the VD Facebook group but have long since stopped posting on bike forums.

-my point was that they’d be worn by shouty-mouthed, chest beating ENGErLanders. The demographic of what’s left here isn’t exactly diverse, is it?

Let’s make some assumptions:

- majority Tory voting
-majority pro brexit
-majority white and male and of pensionable age


Dig a bit deeper we’d get into the views of those who can’t see charity as an option or handouts for the poor and think that human suffering is largely a self-fulfilling prophecy etc.

What’s the solution? There are so few left that you’re never going to get a reasonable debate. I’d say keep politics completely out of the forum. Lock all threads. Keep chat to bikes and stuff. That isn’t easy, and we can’t help ourselves sometimes.

[Docca]

These are the relevant sections from the EU/AstraZeneca purchase Agreement published today.

WHEREAS, as part of that scale-up, AstraZeneca has committed to use its Best Reasonable Efforts (as defined below) to build capacity to manufacture 300 million Doses of the Vaccine, at no profit and no loss to AstraZeneca, at the total cost currently estimated to be Euros for distribution within the EU (the “Initial Europe Doses”), with an option for the Commission, acting on behalf of the Participating Member States, to order an additional 100 million Doses (the “Optional Doses”).

--------

1.9.
“AstraZeneca” has the meaning given in the preamble. “AZ Exchange Rate” has the meaning given in Section 1.15. “Best Reasonable Efforts” means
(a) in the case of AstraZeneca, the activities and degree of effort that a company of similar size with a similarly-sized infrastructure and similar resources as AstraZeneca would undertake or use in the development and manufacture of a Vaccine at the relevant stage of development or commercialization having regard to the urgent need for a Vaccine to end a global pandemic which is resulting in serious public health issues, restrictions on personal freedoms and economic impact, across the world but taking into account efficacy and safety; and
(b) in the case of the Commission and the Participating Member States, the activities and degree of effort that governments would undertake or use in supporting their contractor in the development of the Vaccine having regard to the urgent need for a Vaccine to end a global pandemic which is resulting in serious public health issues, restrictions on personal freedoms and economic impact, across the world.

--------

5.4
Manufacturing sites.  AstraZeneca shall use it's Best Reasonable Efforts to manufacture the Vaccine at manufacturing sites located within the EU (which, for the purpose of this section 5.4 only shall include the United Kingdom) and may manufacture the Vaccine in non-EU facilities, if appropriate, to accelerate supply of the Vaccine in Europe; provided, that AstraZeneca shall provide prior written notice of such non-EU manufacturing facilities to the Commission which shall include an explanation for such determination to use non-EU manufacturing facilities. If AstraZeneca is unable to deliver on its intention to manufacture the Initial Europe Doses and/or Optional Doses under this Agreement in the EU, the Commission or the Participating Member States may present to AstraZeneca, CMOs within the EU capable of manufacturing the Vaccine Doses, and AstraZeneca shall use its Best Reasonable Efforts to contract with such proposed CMOs to increase the available manufacturing capacity within the EU. The manufacturing site planning is set out in Schedule A.

Edit: My guess is that this is the bit that the EU will try to rely on, but I think it's loser because of the "Best Reasonable Efforts" qualifier.

Brilliant. How introvertedly up yourself do you have to be to put policy and agreement before the greater good? Or at least try to?

No, I’m afraid we are not in a position to help save your life because it says so here in paragraph 3, subsection 2b....aaaassrgh. Jesus Christ.

[weeksy]

What’s the solution? There are so few left that you’re never going to get a reasonable debate. I’d say keep politics completely out of the forum. Lock all threads. Keep chat to bikes and stuff. That isn’t easy, and we can’t help ourselves sometimes.

I'd give the forum 6 months before it died on it's arse. Would be fine for me as 90% of you would forget to cancel the subscription and i'd get money every year for free... But i like forums.

Whether we approve or not, this clearly is a subject people want to talk about and whilst it may not be the route i want to go down, if i don't allow it, the forum won't get activity.

Look at your posts for example, if it was only disucssions on motorbikes, would you actually have any posts at all ? This isn't a criticism by the way, just an observation. Some come here for bikes, some here come for friends and some come here for a bit of a rant i guess.

As long as it stays within the rules regarding abuse, i think we need to come to terms with the fact that day to day events will be disucssed.

One day the CV19 issue will go away and the subject will die off, same as the Brexit one.... They/you will then debate something else related to day to day lift

[irie]

Brilliant. How introvertedly up yourself do you have to be to put policy and agreement before the greater good? Or at least try to?

No, I’m afraid we are not in a position to help save your life because it says so here in paragraph 3, subsection 2b....aaaassrgh. Jesus Christ.

Ignoring the emotional anger underlying your post, the fact of the matter is that saving one life means sacrificing another. Ugly but true.

[Wreckless Rat]

Brilliant. How introvertedly up yourself do you have to be to put policy and agreement before the greater good? Or at least try to?
No, I’m afraid we are not in a position to help save your life because it says so here in paragraph 3, subsection 2b....aaaassrgh. Jesus Christ.

I love you fella in a non homo way, but you have ranted long and hard about how hard the UK has been hit by covid, and how much better everyone else has done. Well if they have done so great, they would have sorted this, like BJ did, but they didn't. So why have you none of the same vitriol for the EU leaders as you have for Boris. Genuine question.

Yep Boris fucked up in the beginning, but has positioned the UK well for going forward. Some others started well Germany for example, but have fucked their citizens over on the long game, but somehow they escape your ire, and still it's Boris' fault

I do wonder if it was the other way around, whether you would be saying the EU were cunts and Boris was doing the right thing, or whether you would just be calling Boris a murderer and demanding his head on a spike.

[slowsider]

Brilliant. How introvertedly up yourself do you have to be to put policy and agreement before the greater good? Or at least try to?

No, I’m afraid we are not in a position to help save your life because it says so here in paragraph 3, subsection 2b....aaaassrgh. Jesus Christ.

Ignoring the emotional anger underlying your post, the fact of the matter is that saving one life means sacrificing another. Ugly but true.

Good point, but you are arguing for the opposite.
Vaccinating those most at risk first is what the UK are already doing. 'Saving one life' of that group clearly doesnt mean sacrificing the life of someone in a low risk group.
But the UK seem determined to vaccinate all including those who can't follow simple rules about masks and distancing; its 'saving one life' from THAT group which potentially means sacrificing the life of another, elsewhere, in a high risk group.

[Gedge]

Brilliant. How introvertedly up yourself do you have to be to put policy and agreement before the greater good? Or at least try to?

No, I’m afraid we are not in a position to help save your life because it says so here in paragraph 3, subsection 2b....aaaassrgh. Jesus Christ.

Ignoring the emotional anger underlying your post, the fact of the matter is that saving one life means sacrificing another. Ugly but true.

Good point, but you are arguing for the opposite.
Vaccinating those most at risk first is what the UK are already doing. 'Saving one life' of that group clearly doesnt mean sacrificing the life of someone in a low risk group.
But the UK seem determined to vaccinate all including those who can't follow simple rules about masks and distancing; its 'saving one life' from THAT group which potentially means sacrificing the life of another, elsewhere, in a high risk group.

The UK has only set a ‘target’ for vaccinating the Top 4 at risk groups.(15/2) .. the rest will follow as and when.... and despite your assertion, vaccinating one at risk ( but safely isolated) 70 yr old , will mean sacrificing someone from a lower risk group that has to wait .. fact is, everybody that wants a vaccine, wants it ASAP..that’s not feasible so choices have to be made ..the EU want to prioritise their citizens, fair enough but in the same way the UK has acted promptly to provide for our citizens, that is what the EU needs to do ( or should have done)

[Wreckless Rat]

WHEREAS, as part of that scale-up, AstraZeneca has committed to use its Best Reasonable Efforts (as defined below) to build capacity to manufacture 300 million Doses of the Vaccine, at no profit and no loss to AstraZeneca, at the total cost currently estimated to be Euros for distribution within the EU (the “Initial Europe Doses”), with an option for the Commission, acting on behalf of the Participating Member States, to order an additional 100 million Doses (the “Optional Doses”).

Seems what I had read was correct, no profit.

I deal with quite a few contracts for work, and "Best Reasonable Efforts" often appears in them, and from what I have learnt over the years, Best Reasonable Efforts isn't enforceable in law. Which I suspect, is why the EU haven't gone straight to legal process.

[DefTrap]

I love you fella in a non homo way

What a way to find out. You could have at least sent flowers.

[slowsider]

General conclusions which can be drawn are that:

the courts will look to uphold endeavours clauses, particularly where the contract is already being performed; and
parties need to be as clear as possible about what it is they are trying to achieve in order to avoid an endeavours clause failing for uncertainty.
https://www.taylorwessing.com/synapse/c ... vours.html

[Phoenix]

For those medically inclined and those who like figures, ArsTechnica have produced a full Coronavirus breakdown. They say:

“With more data becoming available by the day, we’ll update this story with significant findings as they come along. Before we get to the data we have, a quick note on names: it’s problematic to identify diseases or infectious agents—in this case, virus variants—based on where they were identified. Such geographic associations risk creating stigma and may discourage reporting, so there is an active discussion in the scientific community about how best to name the current variants. In the interim, it has become all too common to refer to these by their country of origin. We’ll try to avoid that as much as possible while making clear which variants we’re talking about.”

The names, history and the variants/mutations.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/01 ... should-be/

Keep Safe & Be Kind & Have A Pleasant A Weekend As Possible.

[DEADPOOL]

For those medically inclined and those who like figures, ArsTechnica have produced a full Coronavirus breakdown. They say:

“With more data becoming available by the day, we’ll update this story with significant findings as they come along. Before we get to the data we have, a quick note on names: it’s problematic to identify diseases or infectious agents—in this case, virus variants—based on where they were identified. Such geographic associations risk creating stigma and may discourage reporting, so there is an active discussion in the scientific community about how best to name the current variants. In the interim, it has become all too common to refer to these by their country of origin. We’ll try to avoid that as much as possible while making clear which variants we’re talking about.”

The names, history and the variants/mutations.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/01 ... should-be/

Keep Safe & Be Kind & Have A Pleasant A Weekend As Possible.

Easy:

CCP deadly virus #1
CCP deadly virus #2
CCP deadly virus #3

That brings us up to date so then...

CCP deadly virus #4.a for the first SARS-CoV-2 version
CCP deadly virus #4.b
CCP deadly virus #4.c
CCP deadly virus...

...and so on for all the variants for this batch. Might come in handy the next time the CCP accidentally release a deadly virus on the world.

Might also remind people where to start looking if we would like to stop this sort of thing from happening again, and again, and again...