Astrazeneca/Oxford vaccine approved

[Docca]

I'm all for ploughing ahead and vaccinating all of the UK. The JVCI order of vaccine admin make sense, but it doesn't account for the newer strains affecting younger and fitter people, which is what we're being told is happening. It also doesn't really account for transmission by the superspreader kids and we're told no vaccine is 100% effective, so to not carry on with our program of vaccinating all of the UK is to put the UK residents at further risk.

Sorry but that simply isn’t focussing on the key issue; it’s not spreading, it’s that you are, proportionality, far more likely to die the (very) older you are or if you have pretty specific underlying health conditions ( or both).

What the kids and younger adults will catch it and survive is key.

To try and attach some sort of morality to this is also wrong. Other Govts can answer to their own people for their lack of organisation of securing appropriate numbers of the various vaccines. We shouldn't feel any obligation, for any reason, to divvy up our vaccine booty. Our Govt is charged with looking after us first as are other Govt's charged with looking after their peoples first too. I certainly cant see the likes of Macron loading up his deux chevaux with vaccines and bringing them here if the boot was on the other foot. Besides, most of the 1st world lacks benevolence to the rest of it, so to try and out the UK as being mercenary with the vaccines is a hypocrisy too far.

Ah, I’m alright (Union) Jack.

Let’s all go back to arguing about contracts rather than morality. That’s really useful.

[weeksy]

That’s really useful.

I'm not sure any of it is useful, because we can disucss this all day, but we still don't get to decide.

All that's going to happen is some people think others on here are twats.. But hey.... i don't mind that

[Wreckless Rat]

I'm all for ploughing ahead and vaccinating all of the UK. The JVCI order of vaccine admin make sense, but it doesn't account for the newer strains affecting younger and fitter people, which is what we're being told is happening. It also doesn't really account for transmission by the superspreader kids and we're told no vaccine is 100% effective, so to not carry on with our program of vaccinating all of the UK is to put the UK residents at further risk.

Sorry but that simply isn’t focussing on the key issue; it’s not spreading, it’s that you are, proportionality, far more likely to die the (very) older you are or if you have pretty specific underlying health conditions ( or both).

What the kids and younger adults will catch it and survive is key.

To try and attach some sort of morality to this is also wrong. Other Govts can answer to their own people for their lack of organisation of securing appropriate numbers of the various vaccines. We shouldn't feel any obligation, for any reason, to divvy up our vaccine booty. Our Govt is charged with looking after us first as are other Govt's charged with looking after their peoples first too. I certainly cant see the likes of Macron loading up his deux chevaux with vaccines and bringing them here if the boot was on the other foot. Besides, most of the 1st world lacks benevolence to the rest of it, so to try and out the UK as being mercenary with the vaccines is a hypocrisy too far.

Ah, I’m alright (Union) Jack.

Let’s all go back to arguing about contracts rather than morality. That’s really useful.

All well and good, but do you honest to God’s think, the EU would be giving the uk their vaccines at the expense of their citizens? I think you’re a tad naive if you do fella. They have already proved they are willing to steal them off the UK, at the expense of our population....

[Cousin Jack]

Ah, I’m alright (Union) Jack.

Let’s all go back to arguing about contracts rather than morality. That’s really useful.

The problem with discussing morality is that it isn't exactly fixed.

It changes with time, and especially with different culture. Your 21st Century Judeo/Christian morality is very different (different, NOT better) than say 9th Century Norse morality. Even today other cultures have radically different moralities. Pashtun morality says you can kill enemies, but must offer food, shelter and protection to any visitor. Turn up at nightfall in a village and ask for shelter and you will be fed and put up for the night, if they meet you a mile down the road tomorrow they may kill you.

Contract law is much simpler.

[irie]

What criteria would you use to exclude anyone ?

Answering a question with a question is something I can do too.

Given that over 12% of world population of about 7.7bn is over 60 years old, would you exclude any of the ~920m in the 60+ group, and if so why?

Actually I don’t believe you ask pertinent questions and then try to over qualify them with more of the same. My answer is no; I wouldn’t seek to reason to exclude anyone from that cohort. If pushed, I’d work through a triage of most to least at risk groups. Under the JCVI that places >50 and then >60 in that camp.*

Anyone who is in their 50s or 60s with underlying health conditions, becomes a higher priority.

So again, what criteria would you chose to exclude people from getting a vaccine?

I would not wish to exclude anyone from getting a vaccine.

* wrong way around.

[Hoonercat]

I'm all for ploughing ahead and vaccinating all of the UK. The JVCI order of vaccine admin make sense, but it doesn't account for the newer strains affecting younger and fitter people, which is what we're being told is happening. It also doesn't really account for transmission by the superspreader kids and we're told no vaccine is 100% effective, so to not carry on with our program of vaccinating all of the UK is to put the UK residents at further risk.

Sorry but that simply isn’t focussing on the key issue; it’s not spreading, it’s that you are, proportionality, far more likely to die the (very) older you are or if you have pretty specific underlying health conditions ( or both).

What the kids and younger adults will catch it and survive is key.

To try and attach some sort of morality to this is also wrong. Other Govts can answer to their own people for their lack of organisation of securing appropriate numbers of the various vaccines. We shouldn't feel any obligation, for any reason, to divvy up our vaccine booty. Our Govt is charged with looking after us first as are other Govt's charged with looking after their peoples first too. I certainly cant see the likes of Macron loading up his deux chevaux with vaccines and bringing them here if the boot was on the other foot. Besides, most of the 1st world lacks benevolence to the rest of it, so to try and out the UK as being mercenary with the vaccines is a hypocrisy too far.

Ah, I’m alright (Union) Jack.

Let’s all go back to arguing about contracts rather than morality. That’s really useful.

All well and good, but do you honest to God’s think, the EU would be giving the uk their vaccines at the expense of their citizens? I think you’re a tad naive if you do fella. They have already proved they are willing to steal them off the UK, at the expense of our population....

The Pfizer vaccine that the UK receives is produced in the EU. I assume that should the EU decide to limit or even stop vaccines being exported to the UK in order to ensure its own citizens get vaccinated, you'll be taking their side in the matter.

[irie]

Good. Grief!

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-move ... e-exports/

EU will instruct its customs authorities to block vaccine exports unless they have a prior authorization.

Brussels has decided to impose a mechanism on Friday under which EU countries will be able to block vaccine exports, two EU officials said Thursday.

In past days, EU officials have debated whether the plan would involve hard-hitting border stoppages or merely a transparency system. The tougher version finally prevailed after relations with Anglo-Swedish pharmaceutical giant AstraZeneca degenerated.

Under the European Commission's plan, the EU will instruct its customs authorities to block vaccine exports unless they have a prior authorization. The scheme will need to be signed off by experts from the 27 member countries, at a session also expected on Friday.

EU countries would only grant such authorizations after making sure vaccine makers have delivered the doses of vaccines promised in their “advanced purchasing agreements” with the EU.

Being reported that the contract between the EU and Astrazeneca will soon be published, but even if the contractual terms have been fully complied with by Astrazeneca I'm willing to bet that the EU will do exactly what it likes to try to dig itself out of the hole it has dug for itself.

[Mussels]

The Pfizer vaccine that the UK receives is produced in the EU. I assume that should the EU decide to limit or even stop vaccines being exported to the UK in order to ensure its own citizens get vaccinated, you'll be taking their side in the matter.

You seem to be deliberately confusing 2 very different things.
UK orders vaccines from UK factory and doesn't give them to the EU.
UK orders vaccines from EU factory and the EU takes them because they messed up their own order.

The EU had every opportunity to get their order in with enough time for the companies to get ready, they chose not to and now they look like an incompetent bunch of idiots throwing their toys out of their pram.
France, Germany, Netherlands and Italy must be fuming they gave up on their own purchase agreements in favour of EU solidarity, that's not the UKs fault and yet again the EU shows the world nobody can rely on things produced there.

[Wreckless Rat]

The Pfizer vaccine that the UK receives is produced in the EU. I assume that should the EU decide to limit or even stop vaccines being exported to the UK in order to ensure its own citizens get vaccinated, you'll be taking their side in the matter.

You're conflating two separate items, but you know this, it just doesn't fit with your bias. If the EU stop the export of vaccines and hoard them themselves, (bear in mind pfizer are dropping production too) i doubt very much it will hinder the UK overly. We will just concentrate on delivery of the 2m AZ doses a week.

The EU on the other hand will have shown itself up for what many of us have always known. An overly bureaucratic unaccountable bumblefuck of politcal has-beens, whose home electorate have already had enough of. An organisation which resorts to bullying and underhand tactics to get its own way. You can hear the nails being driven into the EU coffin as we speak. If ever their was an advert for further break up of the EU, this is it.

[irie]

^^^ Which is what much of the press/media all over continental Europe are saying.

[DEADPOOL]

Good. Grief!

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-move ... e-exports/

EU will instruct its customs authorities to block vaccine exports unless they have a prior authorization.

Brussels has decided to impose a mechanism on Friday under which EU countries will be able to block vaccine exports, two EU officials said Thursday.

In past days, EU officials have debated whether the plan would involve hard-hitting border stoppages or merely a transparency system. The tougher version finally prevailed after relations with Anglo-Swedish pharmaceutical giant AstraZeneca degenerated.

Under the European Commission's plan, the EU will instruct its customs authorities to block vaccine exports unless they have a prior authorization. The scheme will need to be signed off by experts from the 27 member countries, at a session also expected on Friday.

EU countries would only grant such authorizations after making sure vaccine makers have delivered the doses of vaccines promised in their “advanced purchasing agreements” with the EU.

Being reported that the contract between the EU and Astrazeneca will soon be published, but even if the contractual terms have been fully complied with by Astrazeneca I'm willing to bet that the EU will do exactly what it likes to try to dig itself out of the hole it has dug for itself.

Fuck me that's harsh. So if you're a company in the EU, they own you and anything you produce belongs to the Federation.

Whatever next? Stormtroopers?

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[Yambo]

It'll be OK after Docca's been on the phone to them and told them that all lives matter!

[DEADPOOL]

Didn't have to wait long to find out. The EU have just raided the factory in Belgium!

[Hoonercat]

The Pfizer vaccine that the UK receives is produced in the EU. I assume that should the EU decide to limit or even stop vaccines being exported to the UK in order to ensure its own citizens get vaccinated, you'll be taking their side in the matter.

You're conflating two separate items, but you know this, it just doesn't fit with your bias. If the EU stop the export of vaccines and hoard them themselves, (bear in mind pfizer are dropping production too) i doubt very much it will hinder the UK overly. We will just concentrate on delivery of the 2m AZ doses a week.

I'm struggling with the 'bias' part here. My position is that if the UK wants to 'hoard' the AZ vaccine via a contract that bans the export of the vaccine until its order is met, then it's in no position to criticize the EU (or anyone else) for insisting that their orders are met before exports are allowed. Sounds pretty balanced to me

[Docca]

It'll be OK after Docca's been on the phone to them and told them that all lives matter!

You know those red-neck, Southern-State America yobbos that fawn over patriotism in such a skewed way that it makes them sound xenophobic, dehumanised and just a bit silly? That’s some of you lot.

If you cannot start from a place where you consider the well being of all, and by which token we start with the most vulnerable, then I’m afraid that’s quite sad.

I look forward with interest about how we fought in this battle/that contract said this/ etc- but the fact remains, no soon as we leave the EU, some of you are really showing your true colours. This isn’t about us and them, it’s about us and us.

3B3E4C00-6407-4E2B-BA17-042E9D2E3761.jpeg (244.86 KiB) Viewed 1035 times

[Hoonercat]

Didn't have to wait long to find out. The EU have just raided the factory in Belgium!

They inspected the factory in Belgium. Pop over to the UK Media thread, there's a few tips on reading past the headlines

[Docca]

The EU on the other hand will have shown itself up for what many of us have always known. An overly bureaucratic unaccountable bumblefuck of politcal has-beens, whose home electorate have already had enough of. An organisation which resorts to bullying and underhand tactics to get its own way. You can hear the nails being driven into the EU coffin as we speak. If ever their was an advert for further break up of the EU, this is it.

No, you’re right. Far better to have a corrupt government, offering contracts worth billions of pounds to colleagues and friends, bypassing any procurement process and wasting so much money /delaying so many processes that we are in the state we are.

If Boris Johnson was Italian or French of god forbid it, German, you’d be having an absolute field day.

We’d rather not have those difficult conversations though- much easier to say ‘they’re not perfect’ or some pithy nonsense like that.

Let’s not tackle underfunding- let’s go for the user facing experience and blame the NHS...as one particular example that suits your own bias. We built hospitals, we didn’t can’t staff them. We refuse to feed the children of the most at need. We don’t care about the livelihoods of our workers, for example our trawlermen, because we took back our borders. Etc.

[Wreckless Rat]

The Pfizer vaccine that the UK receives is produced in the EU. I assume that should the EU decide to limit or even stop vaccines being exported to the UK in order to ensure its own citizens get vaccinated, you'll be taking their side in the matter.

You're conflating two separate items, but you know this, it just doesn't fit with your bias. If the EU stop the export of vaccines and hoard them themselves, (bear in mind pfizer are dropping production too) i doubt very much it will hinder the UK overly. We will just concentrate on delivery of the 2m AZ doses a week.

I'm struggling with the 'bias' part here. My position is that if the UK wants to 'hoard' the AZ vaccine via a contract that bans the export of the vaccine until its order is met, then it's in no position to criticize the EU (or anyone else) for insisting that their orders are met before exports are allowed. Sounds pretty balanced to me

AZ have a contract with the UK, you know the country that LEFT the EU. The EU no longer control what goes on here. They can demand all they like, but they still have not even approved it for use and Germany has banned the Az vaccine from the highest risk group. We are still delivering it to our higher risk group.

The fact AZ are confident that their contract supply has a best endeavours clause in it, makes me think the EU hasn’t got much room to complain. It’s just trying to bully it’s way around, pretty much like it always has.

I guess we will see where it goes. None of us are privy to the contracts - but I would suspect a big pharma is better at contract law than the EU, who thought they would have a choice of 4/5 vaccines - but so far have only managed to approve two, one of which has had to slow down, and another is certain it’s acting within it’s contractual terms.

I suspect the EU commission has been overly arrogant as normal.

[Docca]

Didn't have to wait long to find out. The EU have just raided the factory in Belgium!

They inspected the factory in Belgium. Pop over to the UK Media thread, there's a few tips on reading past the headlines

Don’t expect to read beyond a headline ffs!

[Yorick]

Is the winner here, the one who shouts loudest?