Astrazeneca/Oxford vaccine approved

[Docca]

Despite your second paragraph, I simply don’t believe you have understood the reasoning behind the JCVI guidance. If everyone in the UK right now was to have Covid, the vast majority who would end up in hospital would be the elderly, the infirm and those with underlying health conditions..and so on. That’s why you prioritise the vaccination of those groups first.

While is is prudent to vaccinate those most at risk from death, the eldest group on that list are already closest to it. The benefit of treatment is, not to put too fine a point on it, short lived.

Contrast with the possibility for a fit, active 20-30 year old to contract long covid where they spend the next 50 years suffering those potentially avoidable effects.

The very groups that are themselves >% clogging up the health system currently and preventing other health interventions for other parts of the population. Being old doesn’t not shouldn’t qualify you out of getting help, but especially because it’s having such an impact elsewhere.

[weeksy]

why does the EU assume EU citizens are more deserving than anyone else. Would it be that they are duty bound to think of their own before they think of others. Clearly they do, they think EU citizens trump UK citizens.

Well of course and in reverse the UK gov believe their citizens are more important than the EU and so does every country/organisation, it would be crazy to be any other way.

It'll be interesting to see what Boris does, he's in very much a lose lose situation here whatever route he goes on.

[Docca]

As for Angola and other ridiculous and Ill-thought comparison; that lands squarely in the camp of ‘whataboutisms’ and you’ll never shift people’s opinions when they get that entrenched/not shake off the past. This isn’t about history, or politics, but about principles. Why this doesn’t land with people here ( BUT JERRY BUMMED MY GRANDMOTHeR DURING THE WAR-NEVAR FurGET!!) is not beyond me.

Oh, I thought you were making the point that all human beings are equal, right now, today, regardless of location and politics.
But you meant as long as they're not brown people that live outside the EU.

I was. You were trying your best to seek attention by making ill-thought comparisons. That’s your call and your time you’re wasting.

[slowsider]

Reading some Euro media reports this morning which claim the EU will ask AZ to publish the contract in full, and suggest that the UK vaccine sites are mentioned as primary suppliers to the EU in the contract. If that is the case, given the money the EU has contributed to the development of the vaccine as well as having paid a large upfront payment, I can understand why they might be just a bit pissed off to see the UK getting its full consignment from AZ while EU deliveries are struggling.

Slight correction, the EU invested in the BioNTech development... i.e. the Pfizer one not the AZ one. Just because I invest in microsoft, it doesn't mean I get the profits from Apple inc.

AstraZeneca was allocated €336 million in public EU funding to help the development and production of its vaccine

[Wreckless Rat]

why does the EU assume EU citizens are more deserving than anyone else. Would it be that they are duty bound to think of their own before they think of others. Clearly they do, they think EU citizens trump UK citizens.

Well of course and in reverse the UK gov believe their citizens are more important than the EU and so does every country/organisation, it would be crazy to be any other way.

It'll be interesting to see what Boris does, he's in very much a lose lose situation here whatever route he goes on.

He is, but his duty is to the UK. I can't see him handing that away, only to be called a murderer in the press. He would be utterly crucified.

[Wreckless Rat]

Reading some Euro media reports this morning which claim the EU will ask AZ to publish the contract in full, and suggest that the UK vaccine sites are mentioned as primary suppliers to the EU in the contract. If that is the case, given the money the EU has contributed to the development of the vaccine as well as having paid a large upfront payment, I can understand why they might be just a bit pissed off to see the UK getting its full consignment from AZ while EU deliveries are struggling.

Slight correction, the EU invested in the BioNTech development... i.e. the Pfizer one not the AZ one. Just because I invest in microsoft, it doesn't mean I get the profits from Apple inc.

AstraZeneca was allocated €336 million in public EU funding to help the development and production of its vaccine

It is going to get... not has.

[Mr. Dazzle]

I think it is maybe worth remembering that the give/take and alive/dead relationship with Europe stretches back alot further than the EU.

We've gone to war with most if Europe either to defend bits of it, invade other bits of it or both many many times. Lots of British lives have been lost over European freedoms in every direction.

Now of course this pandemic is a different situation to the last few centuries, but to say "we're out of the EU now, you do you and we'll do us" ignores quite a bit of historical precedent doesn't it?

[weeksy]

why does the EU assume EU citizens are more deserving than anyone else. Would it be that they are duty bound to think of their own before they think of others. Clearly they do, they think EU citizens trump UK citizens.

Well of course and in reverse the UK gov believe their citizens are more important than the EU and so does every country/organisation, it would be crazy to be any other way.

It'll be interesting to see what Boris does, he's in very much a lose lose situation here whatever route he goes on.

He is, but his duty is to the UK. I can't see him handing that away, only to be called a murderer in the press. He would be utterly crucified.

But he'll be called a murderer by the opposite people if he doesn't.

[Wreckless Rat]

Well of course and in reverse the UK gov believe their citizens are more important than the EU and so does every country/organisation, it would be crazy to be any other way.

It'll be interesting to see what Boris does, he's in very much a lose lose situation here whatever route he goes on.

He is, but his duty is to the UK. I can't see him handing that away, only to be called a murderer in the press. He would be utterly crucified.

But he'll be called a murderer by the opposite people if he doesn't.

Indeed, but EU citizens don't get to vote....

[Wreckless Rat]

I think it is maybe worth remembering that the give/take and alive/dead relationship with Europe stretches back alot further than the EU.

We've gone to war with most if Europe either to defend bits of it, invade other bits of it or both many many times. Lots of British lives have been lost over European freedoms in every direction.

Now of course this pandemic is a different situation to the last few centuries, but to say "we're out of the EU now, you do you and we'll do us" ignores quite a bit of historical precedent doesn't it?

But is was perfectly OK for the EU to say.. You're out of the EU, so you lose all benefits, even though history, helped create etc....

The EU have made this rod for it's own back, the EU was too busy trying to fuck the UK over in the Brexit "negotiations" and was patting itself on the back on how well it was doing being as mean as possible, letter of the law, hand over your ham sandwich... it forgot to order some vaccines.

Not so clever as they thought, eh.

[weeksy]

He is, but his duty is to the UK. I can't see him handing that away, only to be called a murderer in the press. He would be utterly crucified.

But he'll be called a murderer by the opposite people if he doesn't.

Indeed, but EU citizens don't get to vote....

Granted but you can bet your arse he'll be called that by the labour supporters in this country too, maybe not all, but certainly some, plus the namby pamby 'save the world' lot too. Not a lot he/they can do, as i say, it's a lose lose in many ways.

[Yambo]

AstraZeneca was allocated €336 million in public EU funding to help the development and production of its vaccine

Has it actually got the money and can spend it?

[Wreckless Rat]

But he'll be called a murderer by the opposite people if he doesn't.

Indeed, but EU citizens don't get to vote....

Granted but you can bet your arse he'll be called that by the labour supporters in this country too, maybe not all, but certainly some, plus the namby pamby 'save the world' lot too. Not a lot he/they can do, as i say, it's a lose lose in many ways.

Labour supporters don't vote for him either

[DEADPOOL]

The very groups that are themselves >% clogging up the health system currently and preventing other health interventions for other parts of the population. Being old doesn’t not shouldn’t qualify you out of getting help, but especially because it’s having such an impact elsewhere.

If that is true then that is a further incentive not to exclude that entire age group from early vaccination.

I don't know what the relative numbers are for 20-30 years olds hanging out at old folks homes compared to hanging out with other 20-30 year olds. My guess is 90%+ In other words there is no benefit to anyone outside of the closed care systems.

If the vaccine was scattered more randomly, not only might you break the chain of infection within the more socially active 20-30 age group but the drop in R number would also benefit wider society including the old and infirm.

I'm not obsessing with that particular age range, the same could be said for any arbitrary group subselected from society as a whole. I think choosing who gets the jab first is also potentially divisive whereas a more scattered and statistically random approach would benefit everyone.

[DEADPOOL]

I think it is maybe worth remembering that the give/take and alive/dead relationship with Europe stretches back alot further than the EU.

We've gone to war with most if Europe either to defend bits of it, invade other bits of it or both many many times. Lots of British lives have been lost over European freedoms in every direction.

Now of course this pandemic is a different situation to the last few centuries, but to say "we're out of the EU now, you do you and we'll do us" ignores quite a bit of historical precedent doesn't it?

An interesting perspective on our relationship with central European countries but the EU is not a country. it is an international organisation.

I wonder how this would have panned out if Germany, France, Italy had been able to procure their vaccine supplies at the same time and with the same/similar contract as the UK? That would have been a sticky situation for the UK to claim prior rights due to the location of the production facilities.

As it is, the EU decided to aggregate their collectives bargaining power for reasons they are currently unwilling to specify. It is the EU who are reluctant to discuss the precise contract, not AZ. After seeing @irie 's post earlier, it appears the words "best efforts" might be included in their formal contract regarding the supply of presumably 100's millions of doses.

If so then I don't see how the EU can complain the contract is not being honoured or use that to manipulate production specifically for their benefit simply because their "best efforts" do not meet EU approval.

[Yambo]

I think it is maybe worth remembering that the give/take and alive/dead relationship with Europe stretches back alot further than the EU.

We've gone to war with most if Europe either to defend bits of it, invade other bits of it or both many many times. Lots of British lives have been lost over European freedoms in every direction.

I think that our (the UK) going to war with most of Europe, certainly in the last couple of hundred years, was to maintain a balance of power in mainland Europe. We're a small nation and a large powerful nation just across the channel would/could lead to us into having to defend ourselves. The two main aggressors in this of course have been France and Germany, they are the ones who have really 'gone to war' in Europe. When was the last time Britain was the aggressor in a European war?

We may well have helped a number of smaller countries gain freedom from the big two but France and Germany won't see the history that benevolently. They are still empire building albeit not militarily. Luckily they've run out of Napoleons and the one we can't mention.

[irie]

... My view is cover that list, then share with other nations until they’ve also got that covered ...

OK SdF, please identify which nations you would or would not include in the above, and the reasons why or why not.

What criteria would you use to exclude anyone ?

Answering a question with a question is something I can do too.

Given that over 12% of world population of about 7.7bn is over 60 years old, would you exclude any of the ~920m in the 60+ group, and if so why?

[Kneerly Down]

Good job we (well, Boris eh) didn't listen to the experts:

Brexit means coronavirus vaccine will be slower to reach the UK
And it will cost more here because of the UK pulling out of the European Medicines Agency on 30 December
• Three experts explain why Brexit leaves the UK less able to respond to pandemic

In an article published today [March 2020] on the Guardian website, the academics and lawyers say Boris Johnson’s determination to “go it alone”, free of EU regulation, after Brexit means the UK will probably have to join other non-EU countries in a queue to acquire the vaccine after EU member states have had it, and on less-favourable terms.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... -expensive

[irie]

I think it is maybe worth remembering that the give/take and alive/dead relationship with Europe stretches back alot further than the EU.

We've gone to war with most if Europe either to defend bits of it, invade other bits of it or both many many times. Lots of British lives have been lost over European freedoms in every direction.

Now of course this pandemic is a different situation to the last few centuries, but to say "we're out of the EU now, you do you and we'll do us" ignores quite a bit of historical precedent doesn't it?

An interesting perspective on our relationship with central European countries but the EU is not a country. it is an international organisation.

I wonder how this would have panned out if Germany, France, Italy had been able to procure their vaccine supplies at the same time and with the same/similar contract as the UK? That would have been a sticky situation for the UK to claim prior rights due to the location of the production facilities.

As it is, the EU decided to aggregate their collectives bargaining power for reasons they are currently unwilling to specify. It is the EU who are reluctant to discuss the precise contract, not AZ. After seeing @irie 's post earlier, it appears the words "best efforts" might be included in their formal contract regarding the supply of presumably 100's millions of doses.

If so then I don't see how the EU can complain the contract is not being honoured or use that to manipulate production specifically for their benefit simply because their "best efforts" do not meet EU approval.

The below link describes the process by which the EU's bargaining power was aggregated, and much more.

https://www.politico.eu/article/europe- ... trazeneca/

How Europe fell behind on vaccines

The EU secured some of the lowest prices in the world. At what cost?

This account is based on dozens of interviews with diplomats, Commission officials, pharma industry representatives and national government aides. It details how the European Commission overcame a disorganized start to lead reluctant member countries in a successful effort to reserve an arsenal of vaccines that’s the envy of the world when it comes to cost and the diversification of smart bets.

It also shows how a vaccine strategy that was supposed to be a forceful show of European solidarity, an assertion of the single market’s buying power and a moral stand against Trumpian “vaccine nationalism” resulted in a rollout that has left the EU lagging behind the United Kingdom and the United States

[DEADPOOL]

The below link describes the process by which the EU's bargaining power was aggregated, and much more.

https://www.politico.eu/article/europe- ... trazeneca/

How Europe fell behind on vaccines

The EU secured some of the lowest prices in the world. At what cost?

This account is based on dozens of interviews with diplomats, Commission officials, pharma industry representatives and national government aides. It details how the European Commission overcame a disorganized start to lead reluctant member countries in a successful effort to reserve an arsenal of vaccines that’s the envy of the world when it comes to cost and the diversification of smart bets.

It also shows how a vaccine strategy that was supposed to be a forceful show of European solidarity, an assertion of the single market’s buying power and a moral stand against Trumpian “vaccine nationalism” resulted in a rollout that has left the EU lagging behind the United Kingdom and the United States

Wow. So the jury is, in some ways, still out on whether not not the EU did the right thing?

Reading through that lot you have to wonder what Boris has agreed regarding liability if the vaccine goes tits up. My guess is he'd probably just wing it.

Good call though (albeit another guess!)