Astrazeneca/Oxford vaccine approved

[Saga Lout]

"EU threatens export controls on Covid vaccines amid AstraZeneca supply row
"Such a move could potentially impact the UK’s supply of Pfizer jabs"

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/e ... 01113.html

Security of supply of vaccine.... Brexited away.

"EU threatens export controls on Covid vaccines..."

The EU is threatening export controls. I.e. the EU, not Brexit, is causing this problem.

Do you even read what you post?

'Export' in terms of countries 'outside the EU'.

'Swot I said, innit.

The EU are threatening export controls, the UK (as far as I know) are not. Therefore, it's the EU that is causing the problem, not Brexit. Unless, of course, you think any barrier to trade introduced by the EU is the fault of the UK for having the temerity to leave.

[wheelnut]

I quite like the JCVI approach; 9 top tier risk groups. Get those done in each country first then focus on the least vulnerable. I don’t see how anyone can argue from an ethical stance that an otherwise fit and well 40yo UK male should get priority over a French pensioner or Italian paramedic etc.

While I agree in principle, what about an African pensioner, or a Dominican paramedic? At what point will the EU be shipping off vaccines to other, more disadvantaged countries?

[irie]

I quite like the JCVI approach; 9 top tier risk groups. Get those done in each country first then focus on the least vulnerable. I don’t see how anyone can argue from an ethical stance that an otherwise fit and well 40yo UK male should get priority over a French pensioner or Italian paramedic etc.

In principle I agree with you. But the fact is that it is the prime function of any government or supranational organisation such as the EU to ensure the well being of its citizens, and if they do not then they are in dereliction of their duty of care. It's a dilemma.

Edit: dilemma

[DEADPOOL]

I know, why doesn't everyone who is complaining about the greedy Brits donate their vaccine to some random third world country. They get struck off the list and when sufficient numbers of worthy virtue signalling SARS fodder have given up their jabs, we can ship a batch off to <wherever>.

Naturally, having given up on their jab we'd have to force them into permanent lock down, oh and strike them off the NHS care list as well. Can't have unvaccinated dogooders cluttering up the wards. Let them be martyrs for the cause.

[irie]

I suspect that the only practical answer to the above dilemmas is for EU countries to go into full lockdowns to save lives until the required amounts of vaccines from Pfizer, Astrazeneca, Moderna, Janssen, and others, are available for the large scale vaccinations of their populations.

[Docca]

I quite like the JCVI approach; 9 top tier risk groups. Get those done in each country first then focus on the least vulnerable. I don’t see how anyone can argue from an ethical stance that an otherwise fit and well 40yo UK male should get priority over a French pensioner or Italian paramedic etc.

While I agree in principle, what about an African pensioner, or a Dominican paramedic? At what point will the EU be shipping off vaccines to other, more disadvantaged countries?

I don’t mean to suggest this is limited to Europe. It should be shared; no life is worth more than another.

I vehemently disagree with the obtuse suggestion that if you feel we should share to those in need, you surrender your turn. However, again, the 9 categories in the JCVI are a good foundation. If you are otherwise of good health and outside of those categories, you should be better placed to wait.

[Horse]

oh and strike them off the NHS care list as well. Can't have unvaccinated dogooders cluttering up the wards. Let them be martyrs for the cause.

Like we don't do for flu jabs or MMR, meningitis or any of the others offered but refused.

[DefTrap]

If it's obvious then state it plainly.

Didn't think it needed it.
But in such times of deadly emergency it's wrong to insist on a contractual obligation to a bigger quicker share of the pie. Especially when it's your near neighbours frontline staff and elderly still at risk. So yes morally it stinks.

[Wreckless Rat]

This just proves some people want to kick the uk government no matter what they do.....

Yesterday is was utterly disgusting the uk “COVID deaths” were the worst in Europe, even though excess mortality is oddly middle of the road for Europe, I suspect owing to what some of have been saying all along - there is a vested interested in other countries reporting lower deaths owing to COVID. Today, we are supposed to accept more ‘ preventable’ brits deaths for the sake of other countries and that’s ok. The next 10, 15, 20,000 don’t matter, so long as Pierre gets his jab in Paris.

A few weeks ago, France closed its borders to the uk with zero thought to the impact to uk from health supplies to grocery’s, let alone all those stranded and unable to get home etc. France was waved about as what the Uk should have done. So it’s ok for the EU to hold up insulin putting uk lives at risk, that was fair, and the result of brexit - tough luck this is what the uk voted for. Now the boot is on the other foot, the uk is meant to give up its own stock for the EU.

If Boris has had enough of being pm - selling our vaccine orders to the EU, not even because of negotiations, but simply because of bully boy threats is a sure way to give up the job.

[Docca]

That’s getting tiring, wratty- this isn’t government bashing but siding on what is right. You banging that particular drum is just distracting as does nothing to further the discussion on how we make things right for the many.

Also, and this is also tiring, attempting to qualify total deaths against ‘middle of the road’ excess deaths is folly.

And this is not about trying to play one nation against another- there is absolutely no need for that Dailh Mail xenophobia. This isn’t about nationalism, this is about the best opportunity for humans to survive and move on from this crisis.

The fact is, if we have an opportunity to help those in need ( no matter where they are) based on the known knowns that our younger and fitter will be fine, we absolutely should. Absolutely.

[DEADPOOL]

I don’t mean to suggest this is limited to Europe. It should be shared; no life is worth more than another.

I vehemently disagree with the obtuse suggestion that if you feel we should share to those in need, you surrender your turn. However, again, the 9 categories in the JCVI are a good foundation. If you are otherwise of good health and outside of those categories, you should be better placed to wait.

Here's the problem with your vehement disagreement. I might agree.

I agree "we" should share to those in need and I agree that should not include me just because I am suggesting the idea. I which case I volunteer you to give up your vaccine so that "we" can "share" something during this zero sum period of the game.

On a more serious note, I disagree with the idea of selecting ALL those who should receive the jab first. The problem with a pandemic is not the mortality for each unfortunate victim. The problem is the rate of infection with such a highly transmissible virus and the effect that has on the health system and the function of a complex society.

Certainly the most vulnerable elderly should get the vaccine first. I wouldn't draw a hard line at 70+ but rather a 100% probability being first in the queue, with the probability of getting called up first tailing off on a bell curve distribution with 70 being the peak.

Then theres's a very good case for healthcare workers being next in line for obvious reasons. Again I wouldn't want to make that exclusive but heavily weight the probability of doctors, nurses etc. getting called up next.

Everyone else gets called up entirely at random. Instead of clumps of "the chosen ones" being immunised, we distribute an increasing herd immunity scattered among the general population which I suggest would be the best strategy for reducing the R number. The chain of infection rises exponentially (at R) and if the chain is broken when the virus hits an immunised person, the more randomly scattered they are among society, the better.

Sadly we no longer have an evil genius like Cummings who would happily suggest such an inhumane plan.

[Wreckless Rat]

Which brits are you willing to sacrifice though....

It is as simple as that.

It’s not daily mail, there have been plenty posting in here the uk is the worst affected country in Europe - if that’s the case - we need the vaccine more than other countries. Can’t have it both ways.

Happy to be shown wrong on excess deaths - but it does seem there is an anomaly - why are our excess deaths not as high. If someone can explain that, I’m more than happy to be educated. For months now, people have been saying excess mortality is the only real measure of deaths causes by covid, either via primary or secondary cause. Yet now the stats “appear” to be showing that the uk isn’t showing the huge figures above the rest of the EU countries, excess mortality is no longer relevant?

[irie]

... Pierre gets his jab ...

That's a bit tricky when it seems that only about 40% of the "Pierres" want to be vaccinated. So "herd immunity", which I believe requires at least 60% of the population to be immune, will not happen unless a large proportion of the population which does not want to be vaccinated is infected and survives thereby becoming immune.

https://www.euronews.com/2021/01/18/why ... 19-vaccine

just 40% of people in France said that if a COVID-19 vaccine was available they would get it, according to a December 2020 Ipsos survey.

[Wreckless Rat]

And let’s not forget the poster boy Germany, they have COVID so under control they hardly need the vaccination.

The UK has been hardest hit, both in terms of deaths and economically - I’ve read that a thousand times over the last year.

The EU should have thought about how “charitable” is was going to be to the UK when it was trying to starve NI or even England via its insistence that the UK is a 3rd world country - from where people and produce can no longer be trusted in any shape or form, rules are rules, contracts are contracts after all.

And before I am accused (yet again) of being a xenophobic daily heil reader, I’m thinking about the 100,000 who have died here, the utter chaos lockdown has caused financially, physically and emotionally. There was no call in here the day before yesterday to be sending UK supplies of vaccines to South America....where Brazil have lost 220,000 people. Where people are dying with no access to ventilation etc

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news.sky ... n-12198178

[weeksy]

And before I am accused (yet again) of being a xenophobic daily heil reader,

No you're not, you've got a very highly charged subject and a massive difference of opinion. Simple as that.

It's not like the people from the other side are going to say "oh, you're right actually... good plan, let's change our side completely..."

I'm sitting here seeing both sides of the argument 100% and both sides to me make perfect sense sadly... Which of course means, i don't have a bloody clue what's right and wrong.

[DEADPOOL]

Somewhat ironic given the title of this thread that while the EU are complaining they haven't been allocated a sufficient "share" of the available vaccine production - they haven't actually approved the Oxford virus for use!

https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/ema-r ... strazeneca

Incredibly they refer to their process as "a fast-track authorisation procedure".

[Wreckless Rat]

It’s also ironic wee where told their “group buying system” was far superior to the UK and the UK was going to be left behind, without access to vaccines by not being part of it.

I’m must confess I’m struggling to see where the EU vaccine program has been proven the better method.

[irie]

It’s also ironic wee where told their “group buying system” was far superior to the UK and the UK was going to be left behind, without access to vaccines by not being part of it.

I’m must confess I’m struggling to see where the EU vaccine program has been proven the better method.

Obviously not, otherwise Ursula von der Leyen and Stella Kyriakides wouldn't be throwing their teddies out of the pram ...

Edit: If the EU made an approach which treated us as equals, rather than trying to bully the UK, then constructive discussions could take place. As it is, the way they're handling their own screw up by blaming others merely turns people off.

[Yambo]

Obviously not, otherwise Ursula von der Leyen and Stella Kyriakides wouldn't be throwing their teddies out of the pram ...

Pound to a pinch of shit that those two have been vaccinated, and Merkel!

[Mussels]

I'm reading a lot about how AstraZeneca are the cause of the delay but it's highly suspicious that the EU are having very similar issues with Pfizer. To me it looks like the EU didn't provide enough commitment to either company for them to invest in the required changes, if they expected these companies to shoulder all the risk then it explains why they are behind and included best endeavour clauses.
If we are going to start diverting UK vaccines out of charity then there are probably far more deserving recipients than the EU.

I'd expect this diverting will happen after the UK has got enough people vaccinated to end the lockdown but the EU will have its process sorted by then so it still won't get them. The EU talking about export bans just shows it can't be trusted, much like France banning the export of hand cleanser ingredients a few months back showed they can't be trusted as a supplying nation.