mangocrazy wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:50 pm
How is it that these engine issues get to production models with all the (alleged) pre-production testing that gets done? Are they simply not replicating what Joe Public does with their bikes, or what?
To add a bit to this, I suspect a large part of it is the low sales volumes of bikes and hence the low development budgets.
Extended testing is EXPENSIVE. You're talking hundreds of millions of pounds for volume cars like a Mondeo. Now a reasonable person probably shouldn't expect a 790 to be as dependable as a Mondeo, but most people probably don't even think about it in those terms.
Unfortunately the only way to replicate lifetime wear is lots of testing, lots of samples and lots of people. Motorcycle companies generally don't have the budget for it. Honda and the like do a better job just cause they can share the effort across lots of vehicle types. Things you learn about engine seals are as applicable to a Fireblade as they are to a CG125.
Irs also part of the reason why you see "known" engines recycled into lesser models.
Supermofo wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:53 am
As for bars, I've done 12k miles on my 690 and find them really comfortable. Done some 5-6 hours rides with short breaks without issues. So guess its a personal preference thing. They are high and wide but I like em.
Yeah, fully accept that it's a personal thing. What works for me will not work for you. When I took the 690 in for its annual service the guy at Redline commented that my bar conversion was 'wrong on so many levels', so it does appear I'm in a minority...
Supermofo wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:53 am
As for bars, I've done 12k miles on my 690 and find them really comfortable. Done some 5-6 hours rides with short breaks without issues. So guess its a personal preference thing. They are high and wide but I like em.
Yeah, fully accept that it's a personal thing. What works for me will not work for you. When I took the 690 in for its annual service the guy at Redline commented that my bar conversion was 'wrong on so many levels', so it does appear I'm in a minority...
mangocrazy wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:50 pm
How is it that these engine issues get to production models with all the (alleged) pre-production testing that gets done? Are they simply not replicating what Joe Public does with their bikes, or what?
To add a bit to this, I suspect a large part of it is the low sales volumes of bikes and hence the low development budgets.
Extended testing is EXPENSIVE. You're talking hundreds of millions of pounds for volume cars like a Mondeo. Now a reasonable person probably shouldn't expect a 790 to be as dependable as a Mondeo, but most people probably don't even think about it in those terms.
Unfortunately the only way to replicate lifetime wear is lots of testing, lots of samples and lots of people. Motorcycle companies generally don't have the budget for it. Honda and the like do a better job just cause they can share the effort across lots of vehicle types. Things you learn about engine seals are as applicable to a Fireblade as they are to a CG125.
Irs also part of the reason why you see "known" engines recycled into lesser models.
KTM did issue two recalls for issues on my 690 R that were fixed even before it was run in (brake master cylinder and fuel tank) so can't really fault them on their response. I suspect that most bike owners are more aware of any faults that occur, as opposed to most car owners who need to have it pointed out to them that something is broken or hanging off. My point really was that so many of the parts are used across multiple models, so they should have a good idea of failure rates. The problem arises when it's a completely new engine (as in the 790/890s), one of the reasons I now hold off buying until a model is in its 3rd or 4th year. I loved my TL1000S, but the number of recalls in the first year was just silly. I did get the full-fat engine, though...
I've made a few enquiries of the past week or 2 about getting another 790, or even an 890r. The leaky issues bothered me a lot when I had a 790, but strangely now I don't have one, I'm not considering the 'warranty issues' as potential problems or reasons not to buy!
mangocrazy wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:50 pm
How is it that these engine issues get to production models with all the (alleged) pre-production testing that gets done? Are they simply not replicating what Joe Public does with their bikes, or what?
To add a bit to this, I suspect a large part of it is the low sales volumes of bikes and hence the low development budgets.
Extended testing is EXPENSIVE. You're talking hundreds of millions of pounds for volume cars like a Mondeo. Now a reasonable person probably shouldn't expect a 790 to be as dependable as a Mondeo, but most people probably don't even think about it in those terms.
Unfortunately the only way to replicate lifetime wear is lots of testing, lots of samples and lots of people. Motorcycle companies generally don't have the budget for it. Honda and the like do a better job just cause they can share the effort across lots of vehicle types. Things you learn about engine seals are as applicable to a Fireblade as they are to a CG125.
Irs also part of the reason why you see "known" engines recycled into lesser models.
Trouble is KTM have form here. Back in late 90s, early 00s they were putting out the LC4 engine with a known inherent fault, that if not caught early, would lunch the whole engine. They never recalled any of them and denied warranty claims over it. They've never changed with that approach and as weeksy says, it's because they rely on having a fan base, rather than normal customers, and get away with it because of that. If people stopped being blinded by "Ready to Race" and didn't accept their legendary crap customer service hiding behind it, they'd have to develop things better or shut up shop/die out.
Wossname wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:30 pm
BMW wins here, surely? Both from the POV of reliability issues over many years, and fan base loyalty, over just as many years.
....stands back....
Seriously, though.
I presume you mean that they have even greater form than KTM with respect to reliability issues (just look at all those snapped final drive assemblies). There was also the (still) unexplained death of Kevin Ash some years back, when on an R1200GS press launch. They completely washed their hands of that, as well.
Yes, but also the numbers of owners who seem to be able to forgive BMW again and again for major faults. That's impressive brand loyalty. I see there is a current recall involving nearly 10,000 GS and RT1250, S1000RR/XR etc - front brake seals. Not many years ago, new RT (1200?) owners were emailed and phoned to be told "do not ride your new bike!" I think that was a brake issue also, so not really safety related....
The Japs seems to be able to do it properly, but KTM, while not blameless, are not the worst offenders. I have had 2 orange bikes, which have had warranty issues (warping discs), but, like oil/coolant leaks, they weren't likely to kill me unexpectedly.
I've made a few enquiries of the past week or 2 about getting another 790, or even an 890r. The leaky issues bothered me a lot when I had a 790, but strangely now I don't have one, I'm not considering the 'warranty issues' as potential problems or reasons not to buy!
Wossname wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:52 pm
Yes, but also the numbers of owners who seem to be able to forgive BMW again and again for major faults. That's impressive brand loyalty. I see there is a current recall involving nearly 10,000 GS and RT1250, S1000RR/XR etc - front brake seals. Not many years ago, new RT (1200?) owners were emailed and phoned to be told "do not ride your new bike!" I think that was a brake issue also, so not really safety related....
The Japs seems to be able to do it properly, but KTM, while not blameless, are not the worst offenders. I have had 2 orange bikes, which have had warranty issues (warping discs), but, like oil/coolant leaks, they weren't likely to kill me unexpectedly.
You'll get no argument from me here. BMWs have been the most unreliable bikes I've owned, with KTM coming in a definite second.
So I have a KTM 790 Duke and am definitely not a KTM fan boy.
However due to my back issues I think I need a more adventure styled bike (not withstanding the fact the the 390 adv was the most fun I had in ages and very limited backache) and tbh with the kit on offer the KTM 790/890 adv is probably the best for me with probably the small GS bikes being a close second.
So with something not too big and something not too small, what else is there?
I find it interesting that with KTM the press will mention issues (and they should) and will often end a test saying great bike but watch out for niggles/problems.
Whereas with Beemer you get the 'German Engineering and Build Quality' line mentioned in pretty much every article. Including in issues where they have mentioned things like the forks failing! It's starting to change a little I note that the FEC podcast will mention well know BMW issues, but I still think they get a massive let off
Anyway as for KTM I noted on youtube MCN had trouble with their SuperdukeGT. Various warning lights, non working key and then a dash failure. As they said on a £17k bike (base model) this shouldn't happen and you do worry that whilst sorted under warranty it'd be a much bigger deal over 2 years old. https://www.motorcyclenews.com/mcn-moto ... term-test/
For £1400 more than the stock Tracer 900, the GT gains fully adjustable forks, a shock with a remote preload adjuster, colour-matched panniers, a full colour dash, heated grips, cruise control and a quickshifter. And that’s on top of the two-stage traction control, ABS and three power modes that the stock bike comes with as well as its new for 2018 adjustable screen, inbuilt pannier mounts and centre stand.
