Would you have an electric car if you had the money for a new car and were in the market for one?

[wheelnut]

Sort of related to electric cars. Boxing day was the first day ever when wind power contributed an average of >50% to UK power generation over a 24hr period.


https://www.independent.co.uk/environme ... 79523.html

Now obviously it's a bit blowy out at the moment, but that's fairly rapid progress. UK installed wind generation capacity is set to pretty much double by 2026 based on farms that are already approved or have started construction.

Little way to go before we match the Danes though, they had their first >100% wind powered day (I.e. powering all of Denmark and selling some excess for 24hrs) in 2019.

Some real time info and historical graphs here

https://gridwatch.co.uk

[moth]

Sort of related to electric cars. Boxing day was the first day ever when wind power contributed an average of >50% to UK power generation over a 24hr period.

https://www.independent.co.uk/environme ... 79523.html

Now obviously it's a bit blowy out at the moment, but that's fairly rapid progress. UK installed wind generation capacity is set to pretty much double by 2026 based on farms that are already approved or have started construction.

Little way to go before we match the Danes though, they had their first >100% wind powered day (I.e. powering all of Denmark and selling some excess for 24hrs) in 2019.

A bit blowy is not necessarily good. It can be a bit too blowy*, then yer windfarms have to go offline

*cutout speed is ~55mph IIRC, cheb'll know.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Sort of related to electric cars. Boxing day was the first day ever when wind power contributed an average of >50% to UK power generation over a 24hr period.

https://www.independent.co.uk/environme ... 79523.html

Now obviously it's a bit blowy out at the moment, but that's fairly rapid progress. UK installed wind generation capacity is set to pretty much double by 2026 based on farms that are already approved or have started construction.

Little way to go before we match the Danes though, they had their first >100% wind powered day (I.e. powering all of Denmark and selling some excess for 24hrs) in 2019.

A bit blowy is not necessarily good. It can be a bit too blowy*, then yer windfarms have to go offline

*cutout speed is ~55mph IIRC, cheb'll know.

That'd probably explain why wind power is actually quite low at the moment. Wrong sort of wind.

[demographic]

And when it’s not blowing

To some extent batteries can provide power storage like the 150 MW storage capacity thats in use in Australia, its actually reduced generation needs and added stability to the grid.
Some people in the UK are on flexible tarrifs and even get paid to use the grids extra capacity to heat up immersion heaters/charge their cars via smart immersion heaters/smart chargers up at certain times.

There are far smarter energy useage solutions being thought up all the time, even smarter is efficiency gains or people finding ways to avoid using energy in the first place. Passivehause (spelling?) being a bloody good start.

[Mr. Dazzle]

And when it’s not blowing

To some extent batteries can provide power storage like the 150 MW storage capacity thats in use in Australia, its actually reduced generation needs and added stability to the grid.
Some people in the UK are on flexible tarrifs and even get paid to use the grids extra capacity to heat up immersion heaters/charge their cars via smart immersion heaters/smart chargers up at certain times.

There are far smarter energy useage solutions being thought up all the time, even smarter is efficiency gains or people finding ways to avoid using energy in the first place. Passivehause (spelling?) being a bloody good start.

I've posted about it before, but they've just started building a demonstrator grid scale cryogenic storage plant somewhere in the UK. It's based around the idea of "storing" energy in the form of liquefied air. You're actually doing the exact opposite of storing energy, but the end result is the same.

That strikes me as potentially a very good solution. Performance wise its quite a lot worse than batteries, but it only uses big steel pipes, pumps, tanks etc. There are gonna be a lot of people and businesses with skills in that area.

[demographic]

1've posted about it before, but they've just started building a demonstrator grid scale cryogenic storage plant somewhere in the UK. It's based around the idea of "storing" energy in the form of liquefied air. You're actually doing the exact opposite of storing energy, but the end result is the same.

That strikes me as potentially a very good solution. Performance wise its quite a lot worse than batteries, but it only uses big steel pipes, pumps, tanks etc. There are gonna be a lot of people and businesses with skills in that area.

During the 50s they used miles of high pressure oil pipes to store large quantities of air for Project Pluto which was an experimental nuclear ramjet engine.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Pluto
I have an old NASA book (which I'll admit contains a good bit of calculations that are over my head but being a thicky I can still understand the overviews) and it covers all kind of expermental rocket engines.

[demographic]

Sandy Munro talking about the future of the auto industry, he covers Rivian, Tesla, Hummer, VW and others.
It's really worth a watch IMO.
Its quite long so if you have the attention span of a goldfish theres also cartoons on Youtube.

Lots of companies are going to struggle if they make engines, gearboxes and so on.
One point he makes is that a lot of company execs are in the way and slowing progress down, he claims they (he doesn't actually call em the toxic elderly but...) need to start moving or getting out.

[Mr. Dazzle]

I think there is a bit of a Blockbuster / Netflix moment approaching, and that car companies need to see which way the wind is blowing and plot a course to suit.

Companies like Ferrari need to be particularly careful. A big part of the reason people buy a Ferrari is the engine and the noise. If you want an objectively fast and brilliant supercar you buy a McLaren or Porsche!

If Ferrari have any sense they'll be laying the groundwork for an electric Ferrari, so people can square the idea of one in their heads, before they have no choice. The general hum is that they are doing exactly that.

[demographic]

I think there is a bit of a Blockbuster / Netflix moment approaching, and that car companies need to see which way the wind is blowing and plot a course to suit.

Companies like Ferrari need to be particularly careful. A big part of the reason people buy a Ferrari is the engine and the noise. If you want an objectively fast and brilliant supercar you buy a McLaren or Porsche!

If Ferrari have any sense they'll be laying the groundwork for an electric Ferrari, so people can square the idea of one in their heads, before they have no choice. The general hum is that they are doing exactly that.

It seems that VW are really getting into EVs now, which I kind of prefer to the Tesla kind of stuff.
I want a vehicle to drive, keep me warm and dry and have zero interest in all the spazzy gadgets Tesla chucks on them.
The Octo valve heating thing they're using now seems like a good idea though.
I'm glad Tesla exists cos its kicked legacy automakers up the arse but I don't really want one IYSWIM.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Tesla are a lot like Apple in that they use a lot of existing technology but give the impression they came up with it

The octovalve heating stuff for example, or their IPM-SynRM motor are things that have been around for donkeys years, they're widely used in industry already.

Just like Apple they take existing ideas and repackage in them in an accessible format with a sleek look, which is no mean feat in itself. And just like Apple it promotes both enthusiasm and dislike.

Totally agree that Tesla's lasting contribution has been to light a fire under everyone else.

[Nordboy]

Sandy Munro talking about the future of the auto industry, he covers Rivian, Tesla, Hummer, VW and others.
It's really worth a watch IMO.
Its quite long so if you have the attention span of a goldfish theres also cartoons on Youtube.

Lots of companies are going to struggle if they make engines, gearboxes and so on.
One point he makes is that a lot of company execs are in the way and slowing progress down, he claims they (he doesn't actually call em the toxic elderly but...) need to start moving or getting out.

Long watch and he's not the best talker, but some great stuff. He did lose me and I did question him a little bit at the end when he started talking about VTOL vehicles!!!

[Wreckless Rat]

Tesla are a lot like Apple in that they use a lot of existing technology but give the impression they came up with it

The octovalve heating stuff for example, or their IPM-SynRM motor are things that have been around for donkeys years, they're widely used in industry already.

Just like Apple they take existing ideas and repackage in them in an accessible format with a sleek look, which is no mean feat in itself. And just like Apple it promotes both enthusiasm and dislike.

Totally agree that Tesla's lasting contribution has been to light a fire under everyone else.

G-wan then, explain in detail how the octovalve works and where it is already deployed ‘widely in industry’... cos I have just watched a video where the car dismantler guy says even he can’t work out what all the ports are doing...

[Mr. Dazzle]

Tesla are a lot like Apple in that they use a lot of existing technology but give the impression they came up with it

The octovalve heating stuff for example, or their IPM-SynRM motor are things that have been around for donkeys years, they're widely used in industry already.

Just like Apple they take existing ideas and repackage in them in an accessible format with a sleek look, which is no mean feat in itself. And just like Apple it promotes both enthusiasm and dislike.

Totally agree that Tesla's lasting contribution has been to light a fire under everyone else.

G-wan then, explain in detail how the octovalve works and where it is already deployed ‘widely in industry’... cos I have just watched a video where the car dismantler guy says even he can’t work out what all the ports are doing...

It's a valve block that allows the car to move coolant (just conventional water based stuff AFAIK) between several different systems. It can swap heat between the battery, motor, je AC system, the motor controller and cabin as needed.

Moving heat around between different things with fluid really isn't a new idea. Most machines that get hot already do it, some do it in sophisticated ways. Look at combined cycle engines or industrial power generation or certain rocket engines or or or....etc. etc. if you want. If you want a really clever example look at reaction engines.

As with Apple, they've not invented anything fundamentally new. Dyson are the same, cyclonic separators were invented before James Dyson was born.

Edit: come to think of it, I believe the iPace has something very similar to the Octoblock but I could be remembering wrong. Jaguar don't make a song and dance though cause their customers typically don't care, unlike Tesla's.

[Mussels]

The octovalve looks like a bit of good design and a heat pump makes a lot of sense. I bet more than one manufacturer has just cobbled together a few bits from the parts bin and not cared about how inefficient it is because they can just turn it all off for range testing. Apart from good design I can't see anything new in there.

[Wreckless Rat]

Lol yeah valves have been around for donkeys - but you’ve not explained how this one works, and where it has been used extensively in industry.

If we base it on this - no car company in the world has invented anything since the first petrol engine fired into life....

[Mr. Dazzle]

Again....the idea of moving heat between different systems using valve blocks with lots of ports and pipes with coolant is not new and is already widely used. I dunno how to make it any clearer than that. AFAIK Tesla aren't even the first car company to do it.

[Wreckless Rat]

Yeah - you can wrap anything up like this. Computers have been around since year x so there have been no advances since the first computer came to life, wheels were invented thousands of years ago, so no advances there...

Etc etc etc...

Of course you’ll continue to argue - but please explain, in detail exactly how the octovalve works, because a guy who is used to dismantling cars to seek improvements things it’s a} genius
b} no sure how it all works

So I’d be interested as you seem to know it...

[Mr. Dazzle]

Nah you win.

[Wreckless Rat]

Right, you don’t. Shame

[Mr. Dazzle]

For anyone who's genuinely interested Jaguar do the same thing as the Octoblock in their iPace concept. I think the iPace concept is the car which came before the production iPace but it could be the iPace 2 - I'm not sure.

https://www.jaguar.co.uk/electrificatio ... rther.html