Electric bikes, the next step

[Rockburner]

If all the motorcycle manufacturers got together and came up with a common battery you could stop at a filling station and exchange the flat battery for a fully charged one (a similar process to gas bottles) and then the recharging problem would be solved.

It's not a new idea, and it has been proposed, and I believe some are already going down this road.

The only real issue with it as an idea is that battery tech is changing so fast, as soon as you brought out that kind of infrastructure to the public, it'd be 2 generations out of date. Petrol hasn't changed (fundamentally) in nearly 100 years.

[A_morti]

I see the problem, but shouldn't be big enough to completely stall development especially where it's a collaborative effort.

For example, early phone chargers only output 500mA at 5v while the latest ones reach 12v+ and 3A+, but since they all do that via a USB-B connector, they're all compatible with each other.

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

I would have thought what you would need for a standard battery would be
1. Connector Specifications
2. Physical Shape Specifications
3. Power Output Specifications
4. Charging Specifications

Any improvements would be in battery life and range rather than upping the power output for more speed.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Most electric vehicles have the battery heavily integrated into the chassis design. Its a big box which has quite a lot of structure to it, so it's worth making it pull double duty as part of the chassis. A bit like a stressed engine. For that reason alone the idea of swappable batteries will take some doing.

They also make the batteries funny shapes to squeeze in around everything else - like how fuel tanks are seldom simple cubes / cylinders - so again you'd have to compromise a lot of other things to make them swappable.

Given the realistic charging requirements - which as I've said loads of times are often quite different to what people THINK they need - most assessments show its just not worth the compromise.

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

Most electric vehicles have the battery heavily integrated into the chassis design. Its a big box which has quite a lot of structure to it, so it's worth making it pull double duty as part of the chassis. A bit like a stressed engine. For that reason alone the idea of swappable batteries will take some doing.

They also make the batteries funny shapes to squeeze in around everything else - like how fuel tanks are seldom simple cubes / cylinders - so again you'd have to compromise a lot of other things to make them swappable.

Given the realistic charging requirements - which as I've said loads of times are quite different to what people THINK they need - most assessments show its just not worth the compromise.

I was thinking of motorcycles rather than cars, for instance Bosch motors and batteries are used in different brands of EMTBs and they all manage to accommodate the Bosch battery, and nearly all motorcycles are the same fundamental shape.

Until the electric car industry listen to their customers they're not going to sell many cars, if people say they want instant recharging for 300 miles of travel then the leccy car manufacturers should be doing their best to achieve this, rather than saying to their customers "You don't need that"

[Mr. Dazzle]

Tesla's sales would seem to suggest otherwise, as would the billions already invested...

For reference, Tesla sold nearly twice as many cars as Jaguar last year.

[Rockburner]

I see the problem, but shouldn't be big enough to completely stall development especially where it's a collaborative effort.

For example, early phone chargers only output 500mA at 5v while the latest ones reach 12v+ and 3A+, but since they all do that via a USB-B connector, they're all compatible with each other.

The difference is that a mobile phone charger can be sold with the phone it's intended for, and it's quite reasonable to assume it will not be expected to be used by any other.

With a replacable battery pack it HAS to be compatible with everything made in the next 5 years (at least), as well as everything in the last 5 years (if such things exist).

[Mr. Dazzle]

Its not a case of manufacturers dictating to users what kind of car they can have either, its simply economics.

Car A can do 300 miles on a charge but needs to be charged for 8 hours.

Car B can do 300 miles on a charge and has a swappable battery for instant changes. It costs £5k more and has a smaller boot.

Despite what people will tell you about their charging desires, 9 out of 10 will buy A when they actually have to put their hand in their pocket

Its the same reasoning behind Teslas different range models.

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

Tesla's sales would seem to suggest otherwise, as would the billions already invested...

For reference, Tesla sold nearly twice as many cars as Jaguar last year.

Did Renault sell more Zoes than Clios?

I'm not saying electric cars are wrong or not the future, but whoever starts selling an electric car with the same price and capabilities as a petrol car will make a lot of money.

[Rockburner]

Tesla's sales would seem to suggest otherwise, as would the billions already invested...

For reference, Tesla sold nearly twice as many cars as Jaguar last year.

Did Renault sell more Zoes than Clios?

No idea, but that will very likely be a completely different buying demographic.

I'm not saying electric cars are wrong or not the future, but whoever starts selling an electric car with the same price and capabilities as a petrol car will make a lot of money.

You're not wrong, and I'm pretty sure it's what they're all trying to achieve. (compatible with making a profit their shareholders will accept, obviously)

[Mr. Dazzle]

Thats what the Tesla Model 3 (nearly) is, which is why you see so many. Take a look at Tesla's market value! The VW, BMW and Merc equivalents are about to hit the market and you'll see loads of them too.

The Model 3 is faster than the equivalent price Beemer and has a bigger boot and more interior space. It loses out on range, but it turns out that is not the big deal everyone makes out after all....

[A_morti]

Most electric vehicles have the battery heavily integrated into the chassis design... For that reason alone the idea of swappable batteries will take some doing.

Swappable batteries are already a reality on (for example) the Super Soco and Niu range of Chinese electric 50/125 equivalent scooters. That's just two I'm aware of, sure more are doing that already.

Worth considering bikes aren't the same as cars in this respect. You can carry much more battery in a car than on a bike due to space and weight considerations. No idea how much weight or volume is in a Tesla battery but I bet it's enough that your nan wouldn't want to hot-swap it.

[Noggin]

I read an article somewhere that said someone had worked out the energy used to make an electric vehicle
plus batteries and it would need to do around 80k miles to become carbon neutral.
Ok for cars and vans that often do over 100k but it said motorcycles that do lower mileage
the benefit to the planet was not so great.

Is that 80k miles in it lifetime? Or x years?

Same reason I think spannies look a bit odd.

I may also be a heathen, but, what are spannies??

[cheb]

Expansion chambers, a type of exhaust used on 2T engines. Thin at one end, fat in the middle and then thin at the other end.

[Whysub]

Most electric vehicles have the battery heavily integrated into the chassis design... For that reason alone the idea of swappable batteries will take some doing.

Swappable batteries are already a reality on (for example) the Super Soco and Niu range of Chinese electric 50/125 equivalent scooters. That's just two I'm aware of, sure more are doing that already.

Worth considering bikes aren't the same as cars in this respect. You can carry much more battery in a car than on a bike due to space and weight considerations. No idea how much weight or volume is in a Tesla battery but I bet it's enough that your nan wouldn't want to hot-swap it.

My Lifan Eco had a swappable battery, but they cost around £500. The Bosch hub motor by comparison is around £100, but rarely go wrong.

Rich Rebuilds on YouTube had just built an EV Mini using a $200 motor and 2 second hand Chevrolet Volt batteries he got for $500 each. Same as Vauxhall Impera (?) but imagine there aren't many of them in the UK that are being broken so you can buy their batteries.

Seems Amricans, despite the vast distances they can cover going from town to town, have really accepted electric vehicles, but I'd rather have a loud V8.

[Yorick]

I may also be a heathen, but, what are spannies??

This is what spannies sound like.. FF to 3:40



https://youtu.be/8k8hJWKIVNs

[The Spin Doctor]

https://www.motorcyclenews.com/bike-rev ... o/s/20201/

Would you pay £12.5K for a lardy SV650 that has to be charged overnight between rides?

It's actually surprisingly light. Much lighter than my XJ6.

[The Spin Doctor]

But if you assume the variable element of the running cost is 2.5p per mile plus 1p for the belt wear plus 3p for tyres, whereas the SV would be maybe 12p per mile more than that, it starts to look more comparable. Break-even would be after about 50,000 miles, I think. I'm assuming fixed costs would be the same.

The risk is that it's all assuming that the current tax on fuel isn't transferred to electricity... or - probably more likely given the delays in rolling out smart meters to every home - roads pricing.

[The Spin Doctor]

It weighs 190kg, I think an SV is about 170
And on the running costs thing, if break even mileage is 50,000 miles, that's going to take a long time

Kerb weight of the 2020 model: 196 kg (432.0 lb). (EDIT - I see other people pointed this out )

And on mileage, depends entirely how much you ride. When I was a courier in London, 50k was a year's riding. When I was working from Kent, it was about six months.

Even as a basic trainer, I was riding 150 miles a day, including to and from work, six days a week - 900 miles a week! (Which is why after a few months I left the bike in the lock-up and drove in in a diesel van!)

With a leccie bike, I'd have been quids in, in just a year.

[The Spin Doctor]

The Japanese manufacturers are working on a common battery standard, but I suspect it'll more likely turn up in scooters and light motorcycles, rather than bigger machines. Kawasaki have been working on a electric motor married to a conventional gearbox all wrapped up in a Ninja 300 chassis, though at the moment they say "no plans" for an electric model based on that machine.

I've talked about these plans on my Elevenses webcast.