Fight or Flight - Is It Enough?

Riding tips, guides, safety gear, IAM, ROSPA and anything related to keeping riders alive longer !
User avatar
Horse
Posts: 11552
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:30 am
Location: Always sunny southern England
Has thanked: 6188 times
Been thanked: 5087 times

Fight or Flight - Is It Enough?

Post by Horse »

You may well be aware of the principle of 'fight or flight'. If not, here's a quick primer:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight-or-flight_response

The fight-or-flight response (also called the fight-or-flight-or-freeze response, hyperarousal, or the acute stress response) was first described by Walter Bradford Cannon.

His theory states that animals react to threats with a general discharge of the sympathetic nervous system, priming the animal for fighting or fleeing. This response was later recognized as the first stage of a general adaptation syndrome that regulates stress responses among vertebrates and other organisms.

Immediate physical reactions associated with a preparation for violent muscular action. These include the following:
- Acceleration of heart and lung action
- Paling or flushing, or alternating between both
- Inhibition of stomach and upper-intestinal action to the point where digestion slows down or stops
- General effect on the sphincters of the body
- Constriction of blood vessels in many parts of the body
- Liberation of nutrients (particularly fat and glucose) for muscular action
- Dilation of blood vessels for muscles
- Inhibition of the lacrimal gland (responsible for tear production) and salivation
- Dilation of pupil (mydriasis)
- Relaxation of bladder
- Inhibition of erection
- Auditory exclusion (loss of hearing)
- Tunnel vision (loss of peripheral vision)
- Disinhibition of spinal reflexes
- Shaking


To be honest, you have to be pretty scared to suffer all of those in one go - and incredibly self-aware to recognise all of them (which would tend to suggest you still had mental capacity 'spare' to do something useful about it!).

But the one you're most likely to suffer from is the 'tunnel vision', and the way you'll suffer it is by keeping your concentration on whatever it is you're scared of.

In typical riding terms, this is likely to be an extremely hard object - wall, tree, vehicle - on the outside of the corner you're heading into (or trying to successfully get out of?).

Of course, where you look is - usually - where you go, so with vision firmly locked onto the very object which (if given a choice) you'd definately choose not to hit . . . you hit it. Of course, it's too late for 'flight' (unless it's a low wall), and you can't fight an oncoming vehicle (well, not for long, and not often with much chance of winning).

Keith Code has covered 'survival reactions' thoroughly in Twist of the Wrist 2 and elsewhere.

SURVIVAL REACTIONS are the involuntary adjustments your body makes in situations that it feels are dangerous. "The body isn’t smart," says Code. "It’s only interested in right now." Survival reactions are bad. They make you brake too hard, turn in too early, tense up, get tunnel vision, chop the throttle and do a host of other things that interfere with good riding. With practice and skill they can be defeated.

However, I'm not sure that the way it's described there - in particular 'defeating' those reactions - is the best way of thinking about this.

So, perhaps we should 'enlarge' the fight or flight choice?

To me, fight or flight suggests two arrows: one head-on forwards, towards the 'fight', while 'flight' is directly behind us - an impossible task!

Instead, I suggest we had two 'sideways' options, to make a set of four arrows:

Image

We'll call these arrows 'Escape' and 'Evade'.

Any of you who've spent time in the military may recognise the term, as it's used for training like that given to aircrew who are likely to be downed behind enemy lines; evade capture and escape from captivity.

For us, as riders, they perhaps give a better idea of how the 'fight or flight' responses can be mastered. We can avoid the situation, or we can evade it getting worse.

Let's return to the corner with the wall/tree/vehicle: on the approach we put the 'avoid' into action by looking and planning, but - more importantly - we also are prepared for likely eventualities (it's not a big secret that tight bends are often followed by a bend the opposite way, that blind corners tighten, or that they can hide oobstructions). Being prepared means you've already taken care of some of the reaction time you'll need. You can even mentally rehearse the actions you'll need to take. If 'it' happens, then those actions go 'live' - you evade the danger.

When training, or just giving advice, suggesting "don't ... " isn't as helpful as "do ... ".

Fight or flight alone? Nope, add:
Escape - plan in advance, it's no longer a massive problem
Evade - swerve, brake, change line, etc. to deal with the problem
Even bland can be a type of character :wave:
Scootabout
Posts: 582
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:41 pm
Has thanked: 479 times
Been thanked: 310 times

Re: Fight or Flight - Is It Enough?

Post by Scootabout »

Horse wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:56 am - Relaxation of bladder
- Inhibition of erection
The first could be an issue on a bike, the second usually not.
Sorry for lowering the tone, it must be one of those (lockdown?) days :P
User avatar
Horse
Posts: 11552
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:30 am
Location: Always sunny southern England
Has thanked: 6188 times
Been thanked: 5087 times

Re: Fight or Flight - Is It Enough?

Post by Horse »

Scootabout wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:04 pm
Horse wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:56 am - Relaxation of bladder
- Inhibition of erection
The first could be an issue on a bike,
Useful if your bike catches fire.
Scootabout wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:04 pm the second usually not.
Well, they used to say that you could tell a happy motorcyclist by the flies on his teeth ...
Even bland can be a type of character :wave:
User avatar
Trinity765
Posts: 2321
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 2:27 pm
Location: Brighton
Has thanked: 2442 times
Been thanked: 2398 times

Re: Fight or Flight - Is It Enough?

Post by Trinity765 »

There are four recognised trauma responses, fight, flight, freeze and fawn. Fawn being the blend in with everything around you/be a people pleaser/adopt views that are not your own in order to fit in and not stand out. Not sure how that can be related to motorcycle riding and it’s waste of time in high viz.

Through practicing the system I have reduced the number of times I experience fight or flight by anticipating the triggers and being in the correct road position and speed to begin with. A lot of those triggers do not pose a risk if you expect them and have a coping strategy. Examples include a vehicle coming in the opposite direction on a right-hand bend, momentarily blocking your view or the brow of a hill. An advanced rider taught me to concentrate on what I could see and not what I couldn’t see which was a game changer for me. Now, instead of going into panic mode "OMG! OMG! I can't see! I can’t see!" I go into a much more relaxed state of "What can I see? Tree line, curb, road sign” by which time I have my view back and if I don’t I’ve reduced my speed appropriately. If its “blue, green, blue, green, blue, green” I know its too late for flight and flight and I should really be engaging my fawn response to help deal with my embarrassment.
slowsider
Posts: 3189
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:45 pm
Location: RoI
Has thanked: 1264 times
Been thanked: 1188 times

Re: Fight or Flight - Is It Enough?

Post by slowsider »

Trinity765 wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:09 am There are four recognised trauma responses, fight, flight, freeze and fawn. Fawn being the blend in with everything around you/be a people pleaser/adopt views that are not your own in order to fit in and not stand out. Not sure how that can be related to motorcycle riding and it’s waste of time in high viz.
Your last point - look at a group of riders in hi-viz, and the one without it, or in orange (or Spin's pink) stands out.
User avatar
Horse
Posts: 11552
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:30 am
Location: Always sunny southern England
Has thanked: 6188 times
Been thanked: 5087 times

Re: Fight or Flight - Is It Enough?

Post by Horse »

Trinity765 wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:09 am There are four recognised trauma responses, fight, flight, freeze and fawn.
Not heard of this ... off to Google :)
Trinity765 wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:09 am Fawn being the blend in with everything around you ... it’s waste of time in high viz.
Well, perhaps. 'Hi viz' clothing etc relies on contrast, whether by colour or luminance. If you don't have that, it's camouflage.
Trinity765 wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:09 am Through practicing the system
Which one?
[X] whole other thread ;)

I'm sure there are systematic riders who don't do this next bit (and unsystematic, so 'unsafe'?, who do):
Trinity765 wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:09 am expect them and have a coping strategy.
That's the two key points. Taking responsibility for your actions, expecting things not to always go 'right' and having your reactions ready and rehearsed. That may substantially reduce reaction time and help with doing something useful instead of panic.
Even bland can be a type of character :wave:
User avatar
Trinity765
Posts: 2321
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 2:27 pm
Location: Brighton
Has thanked: 2442 times
Been thanked: 2398 times

Re: Fight or Flight - Is It Enough?

Post by Trinity765 »

slowsider wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:52 am
Trinity765 wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:09 am There are four recognised trauma responses, fight, flight, freeze and fawn. Fawn being the blend in with everything around you/be a people pleaser/adopt views that are not your own in order to fit in and not stand out. Not sure how that can be related to motorcycle riding and it’s waste of time in high viz.
Your last point - look at a group of riders in hi-viz, and the one without it, or in orange (or Spin's pink) stands out.
Without wanting to take this off topic while taking it off topic (oops sorry), being seen is more about your environment. Different colours showing up on different backgrounds, pink being the colour that contrasts most often. I bought the Weise Vision jacket this year and while I know I shine like a beacon under certain lighting conditions, I'm not sure how effective it is during, for example, daylight, shaded conditions - still making my mind up about it. Red is a good compromise in my opinion.
User avatar
Trinity765
Posts: 2321
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 2:27 pm
Location: Brighton
Has thanked: 2442 times
Been thanked: 2398 times

Re: Fight or Flight - Is It Enough?

Post by Trinity765 »

Horse wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:01 am
Which one?
[X] whole other thread ;)
The simple one - "don't be a dick".
Last edited by Trinity765 on Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Horse
Posts: 11552
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:30 am
Location: Always sunny southern England
Has thanked: 6188 times
Been thanked: 5087 times

Re: Fight or Flight - Is It Enough?

Post by Horse »

Horse wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:01 am
Trinity765 wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:09 am Fawn being the blend in with everything around you ... it’s waste of time in high viz.
Well, perhaps. 'Hi viz' clothing etc relies on contrast, whether by colour or luminance. If you don't have that, it's camouflage.
That's it, threads done for now :)

Page 9

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... AaGa_xDFuc
Even bland can be a type of character :wave:
The Spin Doctor
Posts: 4096
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:17 pm
Has thanked: 2635 times
Been thanked: 1523 times

Re: Fight or Flight - Is It Enough?

Post by The Spin Doctor »

Horse wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:14 am
Horse wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:01 am
Trinity765 wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:09 am Fawn being the blend in with everything around you ... it’s waste of time in high viz.
Well, perhaps. 'Hi viz' clothing etc relies on contrast, whether by colour or luminance. If you don't have that, it's camouflage.
That's it, threads done for now :)

Page 9

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... AaGa_xDFuc
Is that presentation in the public domain?
User avatar
Horse
Posts: 11552
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:30 am
Location: Always sunny southern England
Has thanked: 6188 times
Been thanked: 5087 times

Re: Fight or Flight - Is It Enough?

Post by Horse »

The Spin Doctor wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 4:37 pm
Is that presentation in the public domain?
I found it by Googling.

Page 10 image of the bright red combine is 'interesting', perhaps it needed more hi viz?


Edit: When Threads Collide; it includes Gould's time to arrival stuff.
Even bland can be a type of character :wave:
The Spin Doctor
Posts: 4096
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:17 pm
Has thanked: 2635 times
Been thanked: 1523 times

Re: Fight or Flight - Is It Enough?

Post by The Spin Doctor »

Doesn't always mean 'public domain' lol but hey-ho... you can always get it taken down.

There was a fatal crash involving a motorcyclist who hit a combine from the rear... they determined that he drove into a cloud of dust at speed and got the chaff thrown up by a SECOND combine working in an adjacent field in his eyes.

Another possibility is that the driver was too close following a high, wide vehicle which popped out round the combine at the last moment so that it was 'uncloaked' in front of him / her. At that point a lot of people will simply hit the brakes and slide into the back of it. I know of at least two similar accidents - one involving a police motorcyclist abroad, who attempted to stop traffic in the inside lane of a motorway to allow an ambulance to join and was hit by a car that was following a truck (he was apparently killed) and one involving the local advanced riding group who had a low speed multi-bike crash at a traffic calming pinch point when the van they were following 'uncloaked' the obstruction (ironically, there had just been a public meeting about the traffic calming and the problems it was causing where the council planners denied there was an issue, and the crash happened just as they were leaving the hall - about a year later, the pinch points in the village were removed and swapped for a 20 limit and speed bumps).

So one does have to be a little careful assuming the 'obvious' happened.

There's also one slide (page 11) where he classes people from idiots to 'genuinely undone by limitations of human visual system'... which is far too 'blame game' for my liking as there's next-to-no actual evidence that people simply 'don't look' - I looked [sic] for it.

You can actually be as observant as you like and can still be undone by a badly designed or badly signed junction.

On at least two occasions I have gone straight over STOP or GIVE WAY lines at speed because of the circumstances. In one case, the STOP sign at a cross roads was obscured by a furniture van parked on the grass directly in front of it, whilst the painted markings were on a crest - it just looked like the main road went straight ahead, and I only saw them when it was far too late to brake. In the second case, the GIVE WAY sign had been knocked down (I found it lying face down in the ditch next to the road when I went back to check) and the GIVE WAY line was mostly covered by a big puddle and gravel from a storm the previous night - only the few single markings far right were visible. Once again the road went straight ahead, the 'main' road actually came in at an angle from the right and turned sharply - which is why I regularly warn riders approaching these junctions on the main road to take extra care.
Last edited by The Spin Doctor on Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Horse
Posts: 11552
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:30 am
Location: Always sunny southern England
Has thanked: 6188 times
Been thanked: 5087 times

Re: Fight or Flight - Is It Enough?

Post by Horse »

The Spin Doctor wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:03 pm Doesn't always mean 'public domain' lol but hey-ho... you can always get it taken down.
It's from here:

https://roadsafety.scot/topics/motorbikes/


16 November 2012
Why does everyone think motorcyclists arrive late – Shaun Helman
This resource is a presentation looking into the various risks and factors of road safety from the 2012 Annual Seminar.

However, and obviously, being a publicly-available resource doesn't mean images are copyright free.
Even bland can be a type of character :wave: