Is this why you make rubbish decisions?

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Is this why you make rubbish decisions?

Post by Horse »

You know those *fail* videos? The ones we all watch, 'tut' at, and mutter about how the performer must be an idiot.

Here's one:



You have to ask why they thought it was a good idea?

I happened across this on LinkedIn,  which explains some of how our normal, quite acceptable,  decision-making can go wrong:



The presenter explains the difference between what we typically think affects and controls our decision-making - elements such as our attitude and the skills we know we have from training  - and the other factors that are far more difficult to account for  - things going on in our brain and body that we can't control.

If you didn't watch it, go back, it's only four minutes.

The first video showed a classic example of a 'brain and body' factor that most of us have experienced, the beer bottles are evident.

But there are more subtle pressures that can affect us. A couple of examples are being late, so perhaps travelling a little bit faster or taking gaps that we wouldn't otherwise, or being upset from a recent argument. 

Another one many of us will have experienced are exam nerves, the pressure to perform, when often we tense up and make 'stupid' mistakes. Or how about peer pressure? You 'need' to keep up because you don't want to look 'bad'.

I mentioned exam pressure.  A common example is 'big match' nerves. You might not think that sort of thing would ever apply to you while out riding, but it can.

I had a Born Again trainee who could do one thing at once, not two. She could perform good clutch control and ride well in a straight line. When parked, she could turn her head to look through a turn.

But not together.

So I asked whether she liked music, and what type?

“Well,” answered this mother of two teenage boys “Heavy rock, actually!”

So I got her to sing ‘Born to be wild’ as I pushed her around a loop (big enough that we’d just got to the chorus at the end of the first verse as I collapsed). Quite happily, she was looking through the turn.

The way I use this is that the logical part of the brain nags: “Oooh, last time you were in front of a crowd you tensed up. Whatever you do, don’t think about TENSING UP!”. So the practical part of the brain, that just wants to get on and do it, gets over-ruled.

Solution? Give the logical part something to do, it’ll be happy when it’s busy and won’t make mischief.

Singing is good as it takes a lot of concentration. Another – particularly good for riders who’ve had cornering problems (that’s a euphemism for ‘crash’) - can be to tell the logical part to talk them through what they should be doing rather than picking fault: “Slow now, press now, look now, roll now”, etc.

People talk about ‘the power of positive thought’ without actually understanding what it can achieve or its limits – try using the ‘tell me’ method to juggle and you won’t be able to think fast enough! Also, if you’re going to talk yourself through an action you need to know what ‘perfect’ looks like.

So let's end with another video. It's riders attempting a manoeuvre they will have learned to do within the space available. But there's an added pressure, someone has put a fence in the way, instantly adding mental pressure.



I call that sort of mental pressure the 'mountain goat' effect; the goat sees fresh grass, so hops across. Goat doesn't care whether it's an 4" deep ornamental rill or a 4,000 ft ravine. If the *fail* riders had ignored the fence, they might well have been fine.

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Re: Is this why you make rubbish decisions?

Post by iansoady »

Horse wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:46 pm

The way I use this is that the logical part of the brain nags: “Oooh, last time you were in front of a crowd you tensed up. Whatever you do, don’t think about TENSING UP!”. So the practical part of the brain, that just wants to get on and do it, gets over-ruled.

Solution? Give the logical part something to do, it’ll be happy when it’s busy and won’t make mischief.
More years ago than I care to admit I attended a systems analysis course. One of the topics was creative, lateral thinking. The teacher's tip was to find an interestingly shaped object (I used an odd-shaped flint nodule which I still have somewhere), hold it in your right* hand and use your fingers to move it around. He suggested that this tied up the left (analytical) side of the brain leaving the other side at liberty to float freely.

Did it work? No idea but it meshes nicely with what you say above.

<edit> Good linked in video BTW </edit>


*I'm not sure whether this works for left handed people although I believe that it's always the left hemisphere that deals with logic / analysis.
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Re: Is this why you make rubbish decisions?

Post by Horse »

Funnily enough, the original version I wrote talked about left / right brain. Sadly, recent improvements in brain imaging technology have shown that it's not quite that simple ... :)

[Written even longer ago, there's a brilliant book called 'Drawing on the right side of the brain', by Betty Edwards. If you want to learn to draw, buy it!]

L/R brain is one of several educational theories to bite the dust in recent years.
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Re: Is this why you make rubbish decisions?

Post by iansoady »

Not sure that it's entirely debunked. It is well known that injury to the left hemisphere (stroke etc) results in speech impairment. But there has been a lot of research into brain p[lasticity and how one part can take over functions from another.

This article is quite interesting: https://www.newscientist.com/article/22 ... the-brain/
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Re: Is this why you make rubbish decisions?

Post by Horse »

Perhaps i should have had three trainees: control, hum & sing? :)
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Re: Is this why you make rubbish decisions?

Post by iansoady »

And of course all would have had to have been double blinded (deafed?)
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Re: Is this why you make rubbish decisions?

Post by slowsider »

But 'muscle memory' is a figure of speech, shirley?
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Re: Is this why you make rubbish decisions?

Post by Horse »

Ish. You will get used to doing things in a particular way. My understanding (limited) is that it's far more brain than braun. However, if you repeat an action then you may well develop those muscles, possibly even adapt your posture.

And, of course, you can build that brain bit by visualisation as well as physical practice - and even that, as rehearsal, doesn't need to be in actually undertaking the full action.
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Re: Is this why you make rubbish decisions?

Post by slowsider »

Oh I'm happy with the idea of repetition making movement more fluid, but 'memory' is a cns function. Even reflexes have to go as far as the spinal cord. Your video man is being disingenuous.
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Re: Is this why you make rubbish decisions?

Post by Horse »

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Re: Is this why you make rubbish decisions?

Post by Horse »

slowsider wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:17 pm Oh I'm happy with the idea of repetition making movement more fluid, but 'memory' is a cns function. Even reflexes have to go as far as the spinal cord. Your video man is being disingenuous.
No, I don't think so, he's just using the term that's commonly used.

disingenuous
adjective
not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.


Not sincere? Think he is sincere
Pretending? Nope, don't think so
Knows less? Possibly, but he's using the term that's commonly used

Wiki says:

Muscle memory is a form of procedural memory that involves consolidating a specific motor task into memory through repetition, which has been used synonymously with motor learning.

Lots of words:

https://medium.com/oxford-university/th ... b1cc4c4726
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Re: Is this why you make rubbish decisions?

Post by Horse »

This popped up (via an article)

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https://gue.com/blog/learning-from-othe ... d-stories/
Extract. Substitute 'ride' for 'dive':
Fortunately, the majority of dives which take place are the former and we consider the outcomes to be positive. If we think about it, the goal for every dive should be to surface, having had an enjoyable time, with gas reserves intact and no-one feeling physically or emotionally injured. But how do we achieve this goal considering the inherent risks we face while diving?

The easy answer would be to have effective training, to have the correct equipment, and to have and apply the right mindset. These three things together then lead to safe diving practices.
....
In many cases, we carry on and don’t think anything of the learning opportunities presented because we know what happened, we know that ‘we wouldn’t do that’ because we would have spotted the issue before it became critical. We often make use of counterfactuals (could have, should have, and would have) to describe how the incident could have been prevented.

Unfortunately, this means that often we don’t learn. There is a difference between a lesson identified and a lesson learned—a lesson learned is where we make a conscious decision to accept how we do things based on the conditions and outcomes, or we actually put something in place which is different than what was there before and see how effective it is to resolve the problem encountered.
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Re: Is this why you make rubbish decisions?

Post by The Spin Doctor »

slowsider wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:17 pm Oh I'm happy with the idea of repetition making movement more fluid, but 'memory' is a cns function. Even reflexes have to go as far as the spinal cord. Your video man is being disingenuous.
Muscle memory is a learned 'un-thinking' response which in terms of function sits somewhere in the 'middle' bit of the brain, between the slow, real-time, thinking neo-cortex which allows us to make a decision about what to do, and the blindingly fast instinctual responses that happen in the 'reptile' brain which are the 'fight and flight' responses to a sudden threat.

The part of the brain responsible for movement is mainly the motor cortex and it develops stronger connections along the neurons that build a kind of template for the repeated motion, making it easy to access without conscious thought.

Of course, THAT'S a massive over-simplification too. Most brain models are when you drill down far enough. But for practical understanding at our level I believe it's accurate enough.
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Re: Is this why you make rubbish decisions?

Post by slowsider »

I wonder why the term is not 'motor memory'? :think:
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Re: Is this why you make rubbish decisions?

Post by Horse »

slowsider wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:44 am I wonder why the term is not 'motor memory'? :think:
Should 'counter-steering' just be 'steering'? Especially bearing in mind that what the action achieves is to lean the bike.
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Re: Is this why you make rubbish decisions?

Post by The Spin Doctor »

Don't get me started on 'inattentional blindness'... that one creates LOTS of misunderstanding. Someone wrote a blog article on one of the insurance company sites which completely misunderstood what it means and wrote a load of bollox about drivers "not paying attention". It's crap writing like that which makes it so difficult to get correct messaging out.
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Re: Is this why you make rubbish decisions?

Post by slowsider »

Horse wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:31 pm
slowsider wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:44 am I wonder why the term is not 'motor memory'? :think:
Should 'counter-steering' just be 'steering'? Especially bearing in mind that what the action achieves is to lean the bike.
No, because steering applies to two-track vehicles as well as single track. Scandinavian flick aside, counter steering would be counterproductive in a car.

Your quote above uses the term motor learning, so why not motor memory. It's a rhetorical question ;)
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Re: Is this why you make rubbish decisions?

Post by Horse »

slowsider wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:09 pm
Horse wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:31 pm
slowsider wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:44 am I wonder why the term is not 'motor memory'? :think:
Should 'counter-steering' just be 'steering'? Especially bearing in mind that what the action achieves is to lean the bike.
No, because steering applies to two-track vehicles as well as single track.
So how do we steer a bike? :)
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Re: Is this why you make rubbish decisions?

Post by Horse »

slowsider wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:09 pm
Horse wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:31 pm Should 'counter-steering' just be 'steering'? Especially bearing in mind that what the action achieves is to lean the bike.
No, because steering applies to two-track vehicles as well as single track. Scandinavian flick aside, counter steering would be counterproductive in a car.
Tell Russ Swift that ;)

1.50 - 2.00 ish, you can see the car react to counter-steering.

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Re: Is this why you make rubbish decisions?

Post by slowsider »

Single track, innit.