In todays news...

Current affairs, Politics, News.
Saga Lout
Posts: 1886
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:38 pm
Location: North East Essex
Has thanked: 574 times
Been thanked: 770 times

Re: In todays news...

Post by Saga Lout »

Horse wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2024 9:28 pm
Saga Lout wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2024 9:16 pm Because I'd like to know whether I'm having a discussion with a true believer or somebody playing Devil's advocate.
Well, you should have included that qualifier in the original post.

But you didn't, you asked for evidence. You just don't like the answer, so are attempting to make it about me instead, rather than acknowledge that there are brain scans that support something you dislike / disbelieve / ridicule.

Using the "Devil's Advocate" idea is irrelevant. There's evidence, accept it or challenge it.
Yes, you presented evidence. Is the evidence convincing enough that you believe it? You appear to be an intelligent person so if you believe it, I might be convinced by it as well. So, do you believe it?

And my other three questions remain unanswered:
Do you believe a man in a dress is a woman if he says he's a woman?
Do you believe I have a full head of hair and I'm not a bald man in a wig if I say I have a full head of hair?
And if you believe one but not the other, why?

I'm not sure why you keep dodging them, they should be pretty easy to answer.
User avatar
Horse
Posts: 11813
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:30 am
Location: Always sunny southern England
Has thanked: 6354 times
Been thanked: 5192 times

Re: In todays news...

Post by Horse »

Cousin Jack wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2024 10:11 pm Would it be a good idea to do what I suggested? Proper research with statistically valid results, to find out WHY significant numbers of people want to pretend/adopt/become something different from what their DNA say?
I really don't know the extent of research into this field.

Why should brain characteristics be less indicative than DNA or genitalia? The difference is that the research is more recent.
Even bland can be a type of character :wave:
User avatar
Cousin Jack
Posts: 4609
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:36 pm
Location: Down in the Duchy
Has thanked: 2638 times
Been thanked: 2364 times

Re: In todays news...

Post by Cousin Jack »

Horse wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2024 10:16 pm
Cousin Jack wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2024 10:11 pm Would it be a good idea to do what I suggested? Proper research with statistically valid results, to find out WHY significant numbers of people want to pretend/adopt/become something different from what their DNA say?
I really don't know the extent of research into this field.

Why should brain characteristics be less indicative than DNA or genitalia? The difference is that the research is more recent.
Because DNA is incontrovertible and we can all see genitalia.

Very few people have brain scans, even fewer can understand them. And no one actually fully understands what they indicate in real life.
Does a male brailn scan mean you are male despite female genitalia and DNA? Or an absolute tendency to wish to be male? Or a statistical tendency to favour paleness? And if so how strong a tendency?
Cornish Tart #1

Remember An Gof!
demographic
Posts: 3114
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:30 pm
Location: Less that 50 miles away from Moscow, but which one?
Has thanked: 1377 times
Been thanked: 1774 times

Re: In todays news...

Post by demographic »

So, it seems that United Healthcare has a job opening for a CEO, any of you high value sociopaths fancy a shot at it?

Just for a little backstory to the main story., this was done last year about their policies.


Plus, as a side note. What was Jake Gyllenhaal doing at around 06:45 Manhatten time last Wednesday?
Image
Last edited by demographic on Sun Dec 08, 2024 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Yambo
Posts: 2481
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:08 pm
Location: Self Isolating
Has thanked: 601 times
Been thanked: 1654 times

Re: In todays news...

Post by Yambo »

Saga Lout wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2024 10:14 pm
And my other three questions remain unanswered:
Do you believe a man in a dress is a woman if he says he's a woman?
Do you believe I have a full head of hair and I'm not a bald man in a wig if I say I have a full head of hair?
And if you believe one but not the other, why?

I'm not sure why you keep dodging them, they should be pretty easy to answer.

He can't answer them if he can't search google for the answers! :lol:
Mr. Dazzle
Posts: 14201
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:57 pm
Location: Milton Keynes
Has thanked: 2596 times
Been thanked: 6370 times

Re: In todays news...

Post by Mr. Dazzle »

Nah, it's just trying to simplify a situation which is actually complicated and then going "aha! Gotcha!" when someone refuses to engage with your over simplification.

I wouldn't answer the question either.
Cousin Jack wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2024 10:12 pm And why those numbers are significant today and were insignificant in my youth.
How many gay people were there in your youth? How many of them did you know about? How many funny-queers-but-definitley-not-gays where there on TV?
User avatar
Horse
Posts: 11813
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:30 am
Location: Always sunny southern England
Has thanked: 6354 times
Been thanked: 5192 times

Re: In todays news...

Post by Horse »

Saga Lout wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2024 10:14 pm
Horse wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2024 9:28 pm
Saga Lout wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2024 9:16 pm Because I'd like to know whether I'm having a discussion with a true believer or somebody playing Devil's advocate.
Well, you should have included that qualifier in the original post.

But you didn't, you asked for evidence. You just don't like the answer, so are attempting to make it about me instead, rather than acknowledge that there are brain scans that support something you dislike / disbelieve / ridicule.

Using the "Devil's Advocate" idea is irrelevant. There's evidence, accept it or challenge it.
Yes, you presented evidence. Is the evidence convincing enough that you believe it? You appear to be an intelligent person so if you believe it, I might be convinced by it as well. So, do you believe it?

And my other three questions remain unanswered:
Do you believe a man in a dress is a woman if he says he's a woman?
Do you believe I have a full head of hair and I'm not a bald man in a wig if I say I have a full head of hair?
And if you believe one but not the other, why?

I'm not sure why you keep dodging them, they should be pretty easy to answer.
When I started biking, it was usual for bikes to have a number on the side panel. My bikes were 175, 400, 500, you knew what size engine the bike had. But some bikes were identical apart from their cc. - 250 & 400, for example. The only way to guarantee knowing its engine size would be an internal check.

The external signs are a guide, a technical check for evidence.

So, instead of your wig example, let's imagine you're claiming that, despite having external male genitalia, your brain tells you that you're female. And you want me, and everyone else, to take you seriously.

How are you supporting your claim? Are you taking actions that support that claim, or does it appear to be a whim or something nefarious. If you're going to the lengths of undertaking surgery, you're unlikely to be making the claim just to access changing rooms

Luckily, there is an opportunity to be tested.

That first test shows you to be autistic. It is known that many autistic people (or people with autism, depending on how they wish to be described) also have associated gender identity issues.

That makes your claim far more likely to be real rather than a lie.

Very recently, extra testing using brain scans has demonstrated differences in brain structure.

That could also make your claim more viable.

Saga Lout wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2024 9:16 pm Because I'd like to know whether I'm having a discussion with a true believer or somebody playing Devil's advocate.
Yes, I've been getting results from Google. Obviously of research you were unaware of, which answered your challenge. So, instead of acknowledging that and thinking of whether you should reconsider, you chose to throw stupid questions at me.

But here's a thought, a question for you: if you'd used Google (or DuckDuckDuckGo, whatever), would you have prefaced your search by asking whether the search engine was a true believer?

- You asked
- You got an answer, evidence
- You can't accept because it means that those people you ridicule might actually be right
Even bland can be a type of character :wave:
User avatar
Horse
Posts: 11813
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:30 am
Location: Always sunny southern England
Has thanked: 6354 times
Been thanked: 5192 times

Re: In todays news...

Post by Horse »

Cousin Jack wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2024 10:56 pm Does a male brailn scan mean you are male despite female genitalia and DNA?
Read the extracts I posted.

They supported (my paraphrasing here) claims made by the people scanned.
Even bland can be a type of character :wave:
User avatar
Horse
Posts: 11813
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:30 am
Location: Always sunny southern England
Has thanked: 6354 times
Been thanked: 5192 times

Re: In todays news...

Post by Horse »

Mr. Dazzle wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2024 9:41 am Nah, it's just trying to simplify a situation which is actually complicated and then going "aha! Gotcha!" when someone refuses to engage with your over simplification.

I wouldn't answer the question either.
Cousin Jack wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2024 10:12 pm And why those numbers are significant today and were insignificant in my youth.
How many gay people were there in your youth? How many of them did you know about? How many funny-queers-but-definitley-not-gays where there on TV?
See the info I posted on when homosexuality stopped being illegal in the UK.
Even bland can be a type of character :wave:
User avatar
Horse
Posts: 11813
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:30 am
Location: Always sunny southern England
Has thanked: 6354 times
Been thanked: 5192 times

Re: In todays news...

Post by Horse »

Yambo wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2024 8:57 am
He can't answer them if he can't search google for the answers! :lol:
See post a few above this one.

And yes, I searched with Google (and said so! :lol: ) because others can't be bothered.

Worse still, they don't like the answers.
Even bland can be a type of character :wave:
User avatar
Cousin Jack
Posts: 4609
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:36 pm
Location: Down in the Duchy
Has thanked: 2638 times
Been thanked: 2364 times

Re: In todays news...

Post by Cousin Jack »

I am reminded of some research done a few years ago. I cannot recall who/where/when and CBA to search.

Rats, in a 'normal' lab environment have a small % of individuals who exhibit 'gay' tendencies, and a small % who exhibit anti-social tendencies. Both are tolerated, although get too anti-social and the rat pack will turn on you.

Increase the numbers or decrease the space so that the rats are cramped and crowded and both %s rise.

Make of that what you will.
Cornish Tart #1

Remember An Gof!
User avatar
Horse
Posts: 11813
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:30 am
Location: Always sunny southern England
Has thanked: 6354 times
Been thanked: 5192 times

Re: In todays news...

Post by Horse »

One more @Cousin Jack

You wanted research. Have you actually looked to see whether any has been done? Here's an example, I'm sure you could find more.

https://senecalearning.com/en-GB/revisi ... ons-of-gid

Biological Explanations of Gender Dysphoria

The causes of gender identity disorder have been researched. Findings suggest that it may be due to differing levels of sex hormones early in development. This theory has strengths and weaknesses.

...

Kruijver et al (2000)

The bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSCt) was studied in male-to-female (MTF) transgenders by Kruijver et al (2000).
They found that the number of neurones in male to female individuals was similar to the number found in women.
The number is roughly half as many as men.


Hare et al (2009)

Androgens are male sex hormones; the major example is testosterone.
Hare et al (2009) studied male-to-female transgender (male to female) and found they were more likely to have a particular gene that coded for an androgen receptor.
They compare male to female individuals to non-transgender males.
Even bland can be a type of character :wave:
User avatar
Horse
Posts: 11813
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:30 am
Location: Always sunny southern England
Has thanked: 6354 times
Been thanked: 5192 times

Re: In todays news...

Post by Horse »

Cousin Jack wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2024 11:04 am .. and CBA to search.

Make of that what you will.
I'd make of that statement that you only want answers supporting your beliefs.
Even bland can be a type of character :wave:
User avatar
Cousin Jack
Posts: 4609
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:36 pm
Location: Down in the Duchy
Has thanked: 2638 times
Been thanked: 2364 times

Re: In todays news...

Post by Cousin Jack »

No, I am happy for you to find conflicting evidence if you feel the need to.

IMO lots of stuff that currently is put down to neurodiversity/personal choice/whatever is actually a response to the very unnatural liefestyle we have. There will always be a small % of people who are 'different', and we should accept them. What we should NOT accept is the abandonment of the 'normal' human structures and behaviours that were built over several million years by evolution.

Your view may differ, but it will take a LOT of evidence to change mine.
Cornish Tart #1

Remember An Gof!
User avatar
Horse
Posts: 11813
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:30 am
Location: Always sunny southern England
Has thanked: 6354 times
Been thanked: 5192 times

Re: In todays news...

Post by Horse »

Cousin Jack wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2024 11:22 am No, I am happy for you to find conflicting evidence
Ok, how about, this, a follow-on from the rats research:

However, results from human studies of crowding proved inconsistent. In an influential series of experiments by the psychologist Jonathan Freedman, individuals employed to carry out tasks under varying conditions of density displayed few pathologies

What do you mean by 'normal structures'?
Even bland can be a type of character :wave:
User avatar
Cousin Jack
Posts: 4609
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:36 pm
Location: Down in the Duchy
Has thanked: 2638 times
Been thanked: 2364 times

Re: In todays news...

Post by Cousin Jack »

Horse wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2024 11:42 am
Cousin Jack wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2024 11:22 am No, I am happy for you to find conflicting evidence
Ok, how about, this, a follow-on from the rats research:

However, results from human studies of crowding proved inconsistent. In an influential series of experiments by the psychologist Jonathan Freedman, individuals employed to carry out tasks under varying conditions of density displayed few pathologies

What do you mean by 'normal structures'?
Not surprised they were inconsistent. People respond in a weird fashion to experiments (see Hawthorne) and it is likely that ethics alone would prevent serious long-term studies (ie crowding kept up continuously for weeks/months, 24/7)

Normal as in so-called 'nuclear families' with 1 adult male, 1 adult female, and 1 or more children, with the female having prime responsibility for the children. BTW that does NOT mean women should be confined to the home and not work. Nor does it mean that alternative arrangements should be forbidden or even discouraged, just that they should not be called normal.

I am bored with this now, let's agree to differ on the subject.
Cornish Tart #1

Remember An Gof!
Mr. Dazzle
Posts: 14201
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:57 pm
Location: Milton Keynes
Has thanked: 2596 times
Been thanked: 6370 times

Re: In todays news...

Post by Mr. Dazzle »

As a 40 year old with (young) children, also knowing lots of people in the same boat, I'd say the notion that women "have prime responsibility for children" pretty old fashioned and more than a little insulting to both parents. Times have changed.
Saga Lout
Posts: 1886
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:38 pm
Location: North East Essex
Has thanked: 574 times
Been thanked: 770 times

Re: In todays news...

Post by Saga Lout »

Horse wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2024 10:47 am...
You can't accept because it means that those people you ridicule might actually be right
I don't ridicule them. A man in a dress is a man in a dress. If he wants to pretend he's a woman I'll call him Miss or Madam or Shirley, as he wishes. But I won't believe him. When a woman pretended to be a man I called her Michael and referred to her as he or him. But I didn't believe her. That's the point, I don't believe them. Tell me why I should believe them. First of all, tell me if you believe them and if you do, tell me why you believe them. If you don't believe them, why are you trying to convince me?
User avatar
Cousin Jack
Posts: 4609
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:36 pm
Location: Down in the Duchy
Has thanked: 2638 times
Been thanked: 2364 times

Re: In todays news...

Post by Cousin Jack »

Mr. Dazzle wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2024 1:43 pm As a 40 year old with (young) children, also knowing lots of people in the same boat, I'd say the notion that women "have prime responsibility for children" pretty old fashioned and more than a little insulting to both parents. Times have changed.
Old fashioned, yes, unashably so.

Insulting was not my intention. Biologically a women has invested 9 months and considerable resources in a child, a man a lot less. It is good if both contribute, switching roles if it works for them is also fine, but at the end of the line carrying a child for 9 months is not a trivial investment, an ejaculation is rather less.
Cornish Tart #1

Remember An Gof!
JackyJoll
Posts: 3807
Joined: Sun May 03, 2020 10:11 pm
Has thanked: 263 times
Been thanked: 1299 times

Re: In todays news...

Post by JackyJoll »

You only have one mother, so they say.