Go woke, or go broke...

[mangocrazy]

Will this re-brand work? I have no idea. But it's a brave move and that, along with pissing off so many gammons, has to be applauded.

I suspect the success will be down to far more mundane things sadly.

The XF, F Type and F pace were all fairly big relaunches and revivals for Jag, all let down by being not as good as the competition, particularly as an ownership prospect.

Impactful rebrands are only gonna get you so far. Plus the fact every western car OEM is being or about to be right royally fucked by China

I don't think that Jag have much in the way of options, to be honest. Making performance upmarket ICE cars is a complete dead end and (as you say) the Chinese are in the process of consuming the low and mid tier EV marketplace, so where else is there to go other than high end EV? Their only point of differentiation is the name (albeit tarnished by successive lacklustre offerings) and bold styling. Having Tata behind them obviously helps, but only so much.

[Count Steer]

Their shareholders may disagree having seen a 30% drop since August.

The 'woke' advert dropped in late November.

Jaguar announced earlier this year they're not making and selling cars any more.

Which do you think has had a bigger impact on the share price* since August?

*and as above Jaguar don't have shares. The parent conglomerate do

I haven't done a deep dive into this but a quick dip into the key India financial indices shows a curve for the year not dissimilar to the Tata one as do some other pretty big Indian companies. The impact of the advert could be interpreted as positive from the curve. However, as ever, looking at one share in isolation from the markets in general and drawing conclusions isn't what I'd call analysis.

PS Reliance Industries is another 'big beast' on the Sensex. They're down 20% Sept-Nov.

[Screwdriver]

Yeah my "analysis" is based on hope more than it is any clue about how these markets work.

I hope Tata get their arse handed to them on a plate, ruining my fondness for the brand formerly known as Jaguar.

But that just goes to show my prejudice towards that sort of inane woke bollocks so my opinion in the matter can be safely ignored. I have no valid argument one way or the other.

[JackyJoll]

I don't think that Jag have much in the way of options, to be honest. Making performance upmarket ICE cars is a complete dead end and (as you say) the Chinese are in the process of consuming the low and mid tier EV marketplace, so where else is there to go other than high end EV? Their only point of differentiation is the name (albeit tarnished by successive lacklustre offerings) and bold styling. Having Tata behind them obviously helps, but only so much.

Maybe Jaguar is just one example of the factories/industries that the “planet savers” intend to close down.

[Mr. Dazzle]

I hope Tata get their arse handed to them on a plate, ruining my fondness for the brand formerly known as Jaguar.

I think TBF Jaguar have been trying to trade on brand heritage and history which hasn't moved in 50 years.

Porsche still talk about classic 911s and release cars which "reference" old models (usually for insane prices) and so on, but they've also won Le Mans many times over the last few decades (including quite recently), dominated sports car racing etc. Plus they make cars which don't break down all the time.

BMW and Merc absolutely destroy Jag in terms of being able to make semi-normal cars in any kind of volume.

Jaguar did the E-type and then.......what? They haven't been a serious racing affair since the late 80s/early 90s. The last truly memorable car they did was the XJ220 in the early 90s. TBF they did win Formula E, but who actually knows about that? They show E and D types etc in their marketing, because they haven't got anything newer

I'd say the brand rot set in decades ago and most of their clientele are dying. I don't think you can blame TATA for all of that, or even most of it.

[mangocrazy]

I don't think that Jag have much in the way of options, to be honest. Making performance upmarket ICE cars is a complete dead end and (as you say) the Chinese are in the process of consuming the low and mid tier EV marketplace, so where else is there to go other than high end EV? Their only point of differentiation is the name (albeit tarnished by successive lacklustre offerings) and bold styling. Having Tata behind them obviously helps, but only so much.

Maybe Jaguar is just one example of the factories/industries that the “planet savers” intend to close down.

I love my hydrocarbon-fuelled transport as much as the next person, but realistically how does one make a genuine effort to slow down and ultimately reverse climate change unless the root causes are addressed? And yes, there will be massive collateral damage either way. If we do somehow get a handle on climate change it will mean whole industries and ways of life going to the wall.

If we don't, we as a species go to the wall.

[KungFooBob]

The Project 7 and 8 were pretty cool.

But I guess a normal punters wouldn't know anything about them unless they took a Ring Taxi a couple of years ago.

[Taipan]

[JackyJoll]

And yes, there will be massive collateral damage either way. If we do somehow get a handle on climate change it will mean whole industries and ways of life going to the wall.

Will populations put up with that?

You might persuade the people of the UK to exist in idle poverty for these virtuous reasons; where does that leave the people in “developing countries?” What is their scope for development?

What will the Russians, Indians and Chinese think when they see Western states closing industries down? What ideas might occur to them? Putin is old, but he can’t be the only Russian who fancies a bit of expansion.

If we don't, we as a species go to the wall.

More of a setback to World economy and society, than actual human demise. Life on Earth is set to die out for geological/astronomical reasons. The human species will likely run into some unforeseen aspect of evolution long before that.

[Taipan]

They've released the footage of pitch meeting for the new Jag campaign...

[Cousin Jack]

I don't think that Jag have much in the way of options, to be honest. Making performance upmarket ICE cars is a complete dead end and (as you say) the Chinese are in the process of consuming the low and mid tier EV marketplace, so where else is there to go other than high end EV? Their only point of differentiation is the name (albeit tarnished by successive lacklustre offerings) and bold styling. Having Tata behind them obviously helps, but only so much.

Maybe Jaguar is just one example of the factories/industries that the “planet savers” intend to close down.

I love my hydrocarbon-fuelled transport as much as the next person, but realistically how does one make a genuine effort to slow down and ultimately reverse climate change unless the root causes are addressed? And yes, there will be massive collateral damage either way. If we do somehow get a handle on climate change it will mean whole industries and ways of life going to the wall.

If we don't, we as a species go to the wall.

Perhaps we will go to the wall anyway.

Saw a snippet recently, quoting from a pre-publication paper from 2 astronomers/astrophysicists basically saying that ALL advanced civilizations will self-destruct within about a 1000 years. Argument was that, regardless of the technology all advanced civilizations will grow and cause global warming. Even the greenest of green tech produces some waste heat, and 1000 years or so is about the limit. Our current planet has been using coal/oil which is far from green, and produces a LOT of waste heat and other shit, but the end result will be the same whatever we do. Lots of assumptions in there, but basically humans are a plague on the planet and our days are numbered.

[mangocrazy]

And yes, there will be massive collateral damage either way. If we do somehow get a handle on climate change it will mean whole industries and ways of life going to the wall.

Will populations put up with that?

You might persuade the people of the UK to exist in idle poverty for these virtuous reasons; where does that leave the people in “developing countries?” What is their scope for development?

What will the Russians, Indians and Chinese think when they see Western states closing industries down? What ideas might occur to them? Putin is old, but he can’t be the only Russian who fancies a bit of expansion.

If we don't, we as a species go to the wall.

More of a setback to World economy and society, than actual human demise. Life on Earth is set to die out for geological/astronomical reasons. The human species will likely run into some unforeseen aspect of evolution long before that.

You either accept that climate change is real and has the capacity to be an extinction level event or you don't.

I guess you don't.

[mangocrazy]

Maybe Jaguar is just one example of the factories/industries that the “planet savers” intend to close down.

I love my hydrocarbon-fuelled transport as much as the next person, but realistically how does one make a genuine effort to slow down and ultimately reverse climate change unless the root causes are addressed? And yes, there will be massive collateral damage either way. If we do somehow get a handle on climate change it will mean whole industries and ways of life going to the wall.

If we don't, we as a species go to the wall.

Perhaps we will go to the wall anyway.

Saw a snippet recently, quoting from a pre-publication paper from 2 astronomers/astrophysicists basically saying that ALL advanced civilizations will self-destruct within about a 1000 years. Argument was that, regardless of the technology all advanced civilizations will grow and cause global warming. Even the greenest of green tech produces some waste heat, and 1000 years or so is about the limit. Our current planet has been using coal/oil which is far from green, and produces a LOT of waste heat and other shit, but the end result will be the same whatever we do. Lots of assumptions in there, but basically humans are a plague on the planet and our days are numbered.

There are already too many of us for the planet to support and our numbers are still increasing. We are also as a species still wedded to this concept of perpetual growth on a finite planet. Human greed will be the end of us all.

[JackyJoll]

And yes, there will be massive collateral damage either way. If we do somehow get a handle on climate change it will mean whole industries and ways of life going to the wall.

Will populations put up with that?

You might persuade the people of the UK to exist in idle poverty for these virtuous reasons; where does that leave the people in “developing countries?” What is their scope for development?

What will the Russians, Indians and Chinese think when they see Western states closing industries down? What ideas might occur to them? Putin is old, but he can’t be the only Russian who fancies a bit of expansion.

If we don't, we as a species go to the wall.

More of a setback to World economy and society, than actual human demise. Life on Earth is set to die out for geological/astronomical reasons. The human species will likely run into some unforeseen aspect of evolution long before that.

You either accept that climate change is real and has the capacity to be an extinction level event or you don't.

I guess you don't.

You dreaming something up and telling me it’s what I think is not the intelligent person’s way of debating.

What I don’t readily accept is that people will sort a climate change problem.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Argument was that, regardless of the technology all advanced civilizations will grow and cause global warming. Even the greenest of green tech produces some waste heat, and 1000 years or so is about the limit.

That doesn't sound right. Even as someone who "believes" in climate change (hate the term, can't think of a better one) I know that CO2 levels right now are a long long way from the historic Earth record high. You do have to go back a long long way to find that high though!

It also reminds me of Ringworld BTW, the two headed Ostrich tripod guys were moving their planet because the ultimate limiting factor on their development was waste heat.

Maybe that's the article you're thinking of?

[Horse]

Lots of assumptions in there, but basically humans are a plague on the planet and our days are numbered.

"Save the Planet"

Nope

Earth will probably be here long after the humans have gone.

[mangocrazy]

You either accept that climate change is real and has the capacity to be an extinction level event or you don't.

I guess you don't.

You dreaming something up and telling me it’s what I think is not the intelligent person’s way of debating.

What I don’t readily accept is that people will sort a climate change problem.

I hate to point out that climate change isn't something I've 'dreamed up', but I guess I must.

So - is climate change real or not?

[MrLongbeard]

Is it called The Cyberfuck!

[Flux]

"Save the Planet"

Nope

Earth will probably be here long after the humans have gone.

Very true but we'll take a lot of other species with us.

[Cousin Jack]

Argument was that, regardless of the technology all advanced civilizations will grow and cause global warming. Even the greenest of green tech produces some waste heat, and 1000 years or so is about the limit.

That doesn't sound right. Even as someone who "believes" in climate change (hate the term, can't think of a better one) I know that CO2 levels right now are a long long way from the historic Earth record high. You do have to go back a long long way to find that high though!

It also reminds me of Ringworld BTW, the two headed Ostrich tripod guys were moving their planet because the ultimate limiting factor on their development was waste heat.

Maybe that's the article you're thinking of?

Not the article, but these 2 guys reckon the 1000 year limit will apply to all civilizations, including aliens. And yes, they were estimating waste heat, not CO2. Not yet peer reviewed so may be accepted, may not.