What do we want to argue about next?

[Screwdriver]

Just in case people don't realise what these numbers are and where they are coming from: https://migrationwatchuk.org/channel-crossings-tracker

[Screwdriver]

Go on, i've no idea what you're on about

I feel as if you're lining me up for some sort of "gotcha".

Out with it man!

[Rockburner]

As I say - just trying to find the delineation point.

You would be better off starting at the other end of this imaginary "line" where large groups of military age men illegally enter the country.

No, I"m interested in how retrospective this idea goes.

[weeksy]

Go on, i've no idea what you're on about

I feel as if you're lining me up for some sort of "gotcha".

Out with it man!

LOL i actually have no fucking clue what on earth you're talking about. None, nada, nothing.

[JamJar]

As I say - just trying to find the delineation point.

You would be better off starting at the other end of this imaginary "line" where large groups of military age men illegally enter the country.

What is military age? Why the emphasis on "military age men" and not on men or any other arbitrary delineation. Are you saying the women and children coming over are fine?

[Screwdriver]

As I say - just trying to find the delineation point.

You would be better off starting at the other end of this imaginary "line" where large groups of military age men illegally enter the country.

No, I"m interested in how retrospective this idea goes.

Before we get into any sort of fervent discussion on this contentious topic, I feel the need to share a story just to put my deeper feeling on the subject out there.

I have an appointment later today in Southall. It's a lovely day so I'll probably take the bike but last time, I took the train and walked through the streets. And oh, man, I stood out like a white thumb!

For those who don't know it, Southall a.k.a. "little India" is populated almost entirely by Asian or BAME peoples. I have Google fact checked myself already and am on pretty safe grounds here, it is the least white part of the entire UK!

https://www.huckmag.com/article/the-rad ... ttle-india

And let me tell you, it is an amazing place! Not just a great place for a curry (the very best) but also the dynamic, the spectacle and yes, the people.

To answer another thread "when was the last time you saw an English (British) gentleman", well the last time was in Southall. An elderly Sikh gentleman with the grey beard, British Raj moustache, turban and smartly dressed in tweed. The very picture of a British Gentleman.

Made me proud to be British.

So no, I am not going to start at the wrong end of the problem. The problem we face right now is the number of illegal immigrants flooding the country and bringing their hatred with them. Why are they bringing hate? Well, we bombed the fuck out of their respective countries for the past what, three decades...



Yeah. Those guys. Recognise any of those countries. Now hoards of military age men from those countries are crossing the channel in boats to come and live in the UK. Wonder how many have lost family or friends in the various conflicts? Maybe they are grateful to us for bombing their respective countries back into the stone age.

Anyway, that's the real and very current problem, not the disgraceful events surrounding the Windrush generation.

[weeksy]

Anyway, that's the real and very current problem.

Is it though ? Is it really ? It's unlikely to be people from Brazil, Australia, NZ, California, of course it's people from areas of conflict that have direct access via land to the UK, what the fuck else would you expect.

This thread is really showing me the people i'd like to meet for a beer and for sure those i'd not.

[weeksy]

The problem we face right now is the number of illegal immigrants flooding the country and bringing their hatred with them. Why are they bringing hate? Well, we bombed the fuck out of their respective countries for the past what, three decades...

You know the person who seems to be bringing the hatred here.... YOU !!!

[DefTrap]

So - just to find the "line" here, lets take an example: you'd be ok with a foreign national who's lived in this country for over 50 years; contributed (via tax/NI etc) financially to the country; contributed via jobs (working for UK companies) to the social cohesion of the country; contributed socially (by being part of the local community eg running local events etc); being summarily thrown out simply because that person never had the need in the past to change their citizenship because in the past the requirement was not there?

Or is there a cut off where a person's contributions to a country outweigh their "unnaturalism" ??

As I say - just trying to find the delineation point.

I've lived in France for 16 years, I pay my way in taxes etc - my language skills are adequate, I don't think that'll ever get much better because I'm a realtively unsociable bastard. I add very little to my community for similar reasons, other than adding some local colour from being quite recognisable as that massive, hairy, English feller with the awful motorbike - almost exactly the same as when I lived in rural Cambridgeshire, except my nationality wasn't a talking point. Everybody seems absolutely fine with this arrangement.
I've got no interest in being a French citizen - literally nobody cares.

If the likes of Marine Le Pen became President, then presumably this previously very easy arrangement would have me labelled as 'a man of military age who entered the country illegally' because horrible twisters with an agenda will do literally anything to massage the truth into fear and loathing of foreigners, because it takes the heat off of genuinely doing anything that makes a difference.

[Screwdriver]

What is military age? Why the emphasis on "military age men" and not on men or any other arbitrary delineation. Are you saying the women and children coming over are fine?

Good question because as you infer, it is deliberately inflammatory language.

First off, almost 90% of those boats are full of men. 10-12% were women+children). That is 2018 data and only the ones we know about or that were recorded/turned themselves in. The real number is likely much higher than these government approved data, plus you're much more likely to find women+children than young men who don't want to be found.

Second point, more of a question really. What happened to the armed forces in those countries we bombed the shit out of? In the event of a regime change, many of their military personnel, the ones we didn't kill already, are probably going to flee for their lives. Especially those who were double agents (I'm thinking Afghan), promised the world, then left to rot or more likely, to be tortured to death.

And "military age" because let's be honest here, that is a chilling reminder these are fit, healthy young men. Oh yeah and they're not all gay so they'll be needing some female company. Company that they did not bring with them. Look what's happening in Sweden to see how that works out.

Then of course there's the liberal, overtly sexualised libertarian west. Women dressed "like unwrapped sweets" according to one Imam and their religion does not forbid "taking" those women, in fact it encourages it! Not only that but if you're from Iraq, the age of "consent" has been lowered to 9.

I lived and worked in the middle east many years ago. I remember it as if I had been transported back in time to the middle ages. We do not have time to discuss the many differences we have with their personal values. They have VASTLY different attitudes towards religion, women, foodstuff/eating and even toiletries.

Multiculturalism has worked in the past, it does not work in the present. If you think it's not that bad here, ask an Irishman how it's going over there...

[Screwdriver]

The problem we face right now is the number of illegal immigrants flooding the country and bringing their hatred with them. Why are they bringing hate? Well, we bombed the fuck out of their respective countries for the past what, three decades...

You know the person who seems to be bringing the hatred here.... YOU !!!

Ah, more rhetoric. Don't tell me you missed the news? You know, the bit about Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Palestine, Iran....

Yeah, you might be right, maybe they love the UK and all we've done for them. On the way over, they might have changed their mind about Christians and Jews. You never know.

Personally, I doubt it.

[weeksy]

The problem we face right now is the number of illegal immigrants flooding the country and bringing their hatred with them. Why are they bringing hate? Well, we bombed the fuck out of their respective countries for the past what, three decades...

You know the person who seems to be bringing the hatred here.... YOU !!!

Ah, more rhetoric. Don't tell me you missed the news? You know, the bit about Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Palestine, Iran....

Yeah, you might be right, maybe they love the UK and all we've done for them. On the way over, they might have changed their mind about Christians and Jews. You never know.

Personally, I doubt it.

So everyone from 'over there' is one of 'them' ?

Can't the ones coming here being the ones who want to escape the war, tyranny, fighting etc and just want to live normal lives ?

[weeksy]

What is military age? Why the emphasis on "military age men" and not on men or any other arbitrary delineation. Are you saying the women and children coming over are fine?

Good question because as you infer, it is deliberately inflammatory language.

First off, almost 90% of those boats are full of men. 10-12% were women+children). That is 2018 data and only the ones we know about or that were recorded/turned themselves in. The real number is likely much higher than these government approved data, plus you're much more likely to find women+children than young men who don't want to be found.

Second point, more of a question really. What happened to the armed forces in those countries we bombed the shit out of? In the event of a regime change, many of their military personnel, the ones we didn't kill already, are probably going to flee for their lives. Especially those who were double agents (I'm thinking Afghan), promised the world, then left to rot or more likely, to be tortured to death.

And "military age" because let's be honest here, that is a chilling reminder these are fit, healthy young men. Oh yeah and they're not all gay so they'll be needing some female company. Company that they did not bring with them. Look what's happening in Sweden to see how that works out.

Then of course there's the liberal, overtly sexualised libertarian west. Women dressed "like unwrapped sweets" according to one Imam and their religion does not forbid "taking" those women, in fact it encourages it! Not only that but if you're from Iraq, the age of "consent" has been lowered to 9.

I lived and worked in the middle east many years ago. I remember it as if I had been transported back in time to the middle ages. We do not have time to discuss the many differences we have with their personal values. They have VASTLY different attitudes towards religion, women, foodstuff/eating and even toiletries.

Multiculturalism has worked in the past, it does not work in the present. If you think it's not that bad here, ask an Irishman how it's going over there...

I better tell my boss i don't want to work with the lads from Pakistan, i mean it's basically the same thing isn't it.

[JamJar]

What is military age? Why the emphasis on "military age men" and not on men or any other arbitrary delineation. Are you saying the women and children coming over are fine?

Good question because as you infer, it is deliberately inflammatory language.

First off, almost 90% of those boats are full of men. 10-12% were women+children). That is 2018 data and only the ones we know about or that were recorded/turned themselves in. The real number is likely much higher than these government approved data, plus you're much more likely to find women+children than young men who don't want to be found.

Second point, more of a question really. What happened to the armed forces in those countries we bombed the shit out of? In the event of a regime change, many of their military personnel, the ones we didn't kill already, are probably going to flee for their lives. Especially those who were double agents (I'm thinking Afghan), promised the world, then left to rot or more likely, to be tortured to death.

And "military age" because let's be honest here, that is a chilling reminder these are fit, healthy young men. Oh yeah and they're not all gay so they'll be needing some female company. Company that they did not bring with them. Look what's happening in Sweden to see how that works out.

Then of course there's the liberal, overtly sexualised libertarian west. Women dressed "like unwrapped sweets" according to one Imam and their religion does not forbid "taking" those women, in fact it encourages it! Not only that but if you're from Iraq, the age of "consent" has been lowered to 9.

I lived and worked in the middle east many years ago. I remember it as if I had been transported back in time to the middle ages. We do not have time to discuss the many differences we have with their personal values. They have VASTLY different attitudes towards religion, women, foodstuff/eating and even toiletries.

Multiculturalism has worked in the past, it does not work in the present. If you think it's not that bad here, ask an Irishman how it's going over there...

Why don't you just say muslims as that is what you actually mean? Why are muslim attitudes to food, women etc. bad but not Hindu/Sikh attitudes or Jews?

[weeksy]

Right so here's where we are today..

Screwd has been given a final warning. Instant ban if this happens again. Not because of his random political bollox, but because there's no place for racism on my forum. None, not now, not ever.... The levels of that racism above astound me that someone would actually say this in public on a forum and it's NOT happening here, not on my forum, not now, not ever.

Simple enough for everyone to grasp,... this goes for anyone and everyone on here, not just him... Racism, singling out races etc is NOT allowed... not in the slightest.

I'm not going to delete the posts, even though i should, but i'm leaving it so people can read, see and feel shame for the place/people/world that we're seeing here...

I'm fucking embarrassed i really am.

[Rockburner]

You would be better off starting at the other end of this imaginary "line" where large groups of military age men illegally enter the country.

No, I"m interested in how retrospective this idea goes.

Before we get into any sort of fervent discussion on this contentious topic, I feel the need to share a story just to put my deeper feeling on the subject out there.

I have an appointment later today in Southall. It's a lovely day so I'll probably take the bike but last time, I took the train and walked through the streets. And oh, man, I stood out like a white thumb!

For those who don't know it, Southall a.k.a. "little India" is populated almost entirely by Asian or BAME peoples. I have Google fact checked myself already and am on pretty safe grounds here, it is the least white part of the entire UK!

https://www.huckmag.com/article/the-rad ... ttle-india

And let me tell you, it is an amazing place! Not just a great place for a curry (the very best) but also the dynamic, the spectacle and yes, the people.

To answer another thread "when was the last time you saw an English (British) gentleman", well the last time was in Southall. An elderly Sikh gentleman with the grey beard, British Raj moustache, turban and smartly dressed in tweed. The very picture of a British Gentleman.

Made me proud to be British.

So no, I am not going to start at the wrong end of the problem. The problem we face right now is the number of illegal immigrants flooding the country and bringing their hatred with them. Why are they bringing hate? Well, we bombed the fuck out of their respective countries for the past what, three decades...



Yeah. Those guys. Recognise any of those countries. Now hoards of military age men from those countries are crossing the channel in boats to come and live in the UK. Wonder how many have lost family or friends in the various conflicts? Maybe they are grateful to us for bombing their respective countries back into the stone age.

Anyway, that's the real and very current problem, not the disgraceful events surrounding the Windrush generation.

OK,

Let's just dial this back a notch.


Firstly: I wasn't actually discussing this with yourself, but with Timmy. I just was interested in what HIS thoughts were re the timelines etc. Not yours. I'm sorry, I know you're interested in this stuff, but I'm not discussing the "modern" immigration issues with yourself, I was just asking Timmy his thoughts, and I got a reasonable reply. I wasn't asking you to jump in on the conversation I was having with Timmy - you'll note I replied to him in my post, not you. Would it be possible for you to refrain from forcing your "agenda" at every single moment in time, please.

Secondly: Where was Windrush mentioned? For reference I was referring to my mother. As many here may remember, she's of Dutch origin, she moved here in the '50s with her parents (who survived the war in Holland) and also lived in France, and Holland during her childhood, but settled here in the UK in the '60s and married my father (Liverpudlian, so his origins are arguable... (that's a joke, by the way)). It would behoove you not to make quite so many assumptions about what people are writing.


So, I'm going to step away from this area of the forum now. I hope you can understand from my comments above that this subject is somewhat emotive to me, and I have no desire to discuss it further, I got my answer from Timmy (thank you @Timmy).

.... I don't see anything wrong with a country saying that if you've been there for 5-10-15 yrs that if you 're not a citizen you have no right to stay.

So - just to find the "line" here, lets take an example: you'd be ok with a foreign national who's lived in this country for over 50 years; contributed (via tax/NI etc) financially to the country; contributed via jobs (working for UK companies) to the social cohesion of the country; contributed socially (by being part of the local community eg running local events etc); being summarily thrown out simply because that person never had the need in the past to change their citizenship because in the past the requirement was not there?

Or is there a cut off where a person's contributions to a country outweigh their "unnaturalism" ??

As I say - just trying to find the delineation point.

Well, personally, if a requirement for citizenship wasn't required on their arrival, then I would say it's a tad unfair just to boot them out. If a requirement to remain was introduced, there should be a grace period whereby they are required to pass the citizenship standard/test. If they don't, then yes, they should be removed.

It's my understanding (I could be wrong) that the UK citizenship test wasn't retroactively applied if/when it came in. I've no idea if my mother had ever been required to pass anything, but tbh, she probably would know more about the UK than most of us (well - football aside, but I'd fail that part too).

[Screwdriver]

Go on, i've no idea what you're on about

I feel as if you're lining me up for some sort of "gotcha".

Out with it man!

Ah. OK. I see where you were going with this.

You ask me a deliberately contentious question, keep badgering me for a response and now we get to see the punchline.

Frankly I am a bit disappointed. I was expecting you to have some interesting argument up your sleeve not just to concoct some excuse to kick me out.

[weeksy]

Go on, i've no idea what you're on about

I feel as if you're lining me up for some sort of "gotcha".

Out with it man!

Ah. OK. I see where you were going with this.

You ask me a deliberately contentious question, keep badgering me for a response and now we get to see the punchline.

Frankly I am a bit disappointed. I was expecting you to have some interesting argument up your sleeve not just to concoct some excuse to kick me out.

No you fucking idiot, i had no fucking idea what you were on about with people coming into the country FFS, how much fucking clearer can i be here ? I don't read the shit you read, i don't follow the news, it was a perfectly innocent question as to what you were on about. You then took it upon yourself to go all sodding radical racist shit on us here...

FFS you clown of a cunt.

[Screwdriver]

OK,

Let's just dial this back a notch.


Firstly: I wasn't actually discussing this with yourself, but with Timmy. I just was interested in what HIS thoughts were re the timelines etc. Not yours. I'm sorry, I know you're interested in this stuff, but I'm not discussing the "modern" immigration issues with yourself, I was just asking Timmy his thoughts, and I got a reasonable reply. I wasn't asking you to jump in on the conversation I was having with Timmy - you'll note I replied to him in my post, not you. Would it be possible for you to refrain from forcing your "agenda" at every single moment in time, please.

Secondly: Where was Windrush mentioned? For reference I was referring to my mother. As many here may remember, she's of Dutch origin, she moved here in the '50s with her parents (who survived the war in Holland) and also lived in France, and Holland during her childhood, but settled here in the UK in the '60s and married my father (Liverpudlian, so his origins are arguable... (that's a joke, by the way)). It would behoove you not to make quite so many assumptions about what people are writing.


So, I'm going to step away from this area of the forum now. I hope you can understand from my comments above that this subject is somewhat emotive to me, and I have no desire to discuss it further, I got my answer from Timmy (thank you @Timmy).

Ah, well you accidentally posted your response in a thread on an open forum. Personal discussions are best conducted by PM. Then of course you did directly respond to my reply regarding the "other side of the line" (which of course topologically is more of a grey area).

I am not particularly interested in "this stuff" but I was asked a direct question by @weeksy. He asked several times leading me to believe I was being set up for a fall.

The Windrush saga is contemporary to the situation you described in your first question. Those were different times and I have several friends facing the same/similar dilemma (my family are/were immigrants).

Interestingly, my mother would have been a contemporary of yours, also at the time (late50's early 60's) in Liverpool. Where I was born.

Makes me a fucking scouser! I should hang my head in shame. Or is that being racist??

[weeksy]

Makes me a fucking scouser! I should hang my head in shame. Or is that being racist??

No, that's not the reason you should be hanging your head in shame today.. not at all.